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15964  - OLD 24 SHOT REVOLVER SIMILAR TO ``MANVILLE GAS GUN``
2/26/2019
Mark

Maker: Unknown, Model: Unknown, Caliber: .45, Barrel Length: 8 Inches, Finish: Rusty, SN: NONE

Markings:
24 cylinder revolving firearm, appears to take .44 or .45 caliber cartridge, unknown if center or rim fire. 8 inch barrel, smooth bore. Square base apparently for fixed mount use. the number 42 is stamped on the front of the frame above the cylinder axle.

Question:
What the heck is this thing? Our best guess is that it is some sort of maritime flare gun. Pictures and video of action at this link: https://photos.app.goo.gl/c9PCTsHWfTYqYQU2A

 Answer:
Mark- Thanks for the link to the video clip, that was a huge help. My first thought was that this was an early Manville Gas Gun, which was a 25 shot 12 gauge revolver for firing tear gas cartridges as a riot control tool. But, while they are similar in concept there are many differences in construction and design details, so it is not any of the three Manville models. The overall style looks European to me, and they did make a lot of really oddball ``high capacity`` revolvers somewhat similar to this.

I agree that the square base is for mounting on some sort of fixed base, or maybe a swivel platform. The eye on the end of the trigger suggests it might be used as a trap or set gun, maybe for protection of agricultural crops, or moonshiner locations or something. A trip wire could have been stretched from a fixed point through a pulley at the rear of the gun, and when the trip wire was stretched it would pivot the gun in that direction and pull the trigger back to cock and fire it. My guess on date would be around 1870-1900.

I finally did find an almost identical gun which was sold at Rock Island in April 2018, described as ``Massive 24 Shot Trap Double Action Only Revolver- German double action revolver, .58 caliber centerfire with 8 3/4`` barrel. Marked with Imperial German ``crown/crown/U`` proofs, ``12`` on the loading gate, ``E. SCH/23`` on the front of the frame and ``2 GR N.G.P. M/71``on the side of the cylinder. The trigger has a loop for attaching a line.`` Condition was a lot better than yours, and it sold for about $5,000 so two people wanted it pretty bad.

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/73/1299/massive-24-shot-trap-revolver

From the video, I think yours looks closer to .58 caliber than .45 caliber. I suspect that the ammunition used was probably a shotshell, in the 24 to 28 gauge range, probably a metric 14 or 15mm shell. I am positive it is not a flare gun as they start about 12 gauge and up, with no need for more than 3-4 rounds at the most, and nearly all are single barrel.

Ian McCullon`s superb :Forgotten Weapons`` site did a piece on the Manville guns which is worth watching- https://www.forgottenweapons.com/other-handguns/manville-gas-gun/

Hope that helps. Interesting gun, whatever it is. John Spangler



15984  - Grandpa`s Pathfinder 22
2/26/2019
Bob

Maker: Pathfinder, Model: 404928, Caliber: 22, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: ?, SN: ?

Question:
I have an older pathfinder 22 belonged to my grandfather and I'm trying to find more info about it. The model number is 404928

 Answer:
Bob, it sounds like you have a Charter Arms Pathfinder. The Undercover was Charter`s first revolver, it had a swing out cylinder and came standard with a two-inch barrel. The frame was chrome molybdenum steel with an alloy butt frame and trigger guard which gave it an empty weight of exactly one pound. The Undercover was offered in .22LR, .22WMR, .32 Long and 38 Special chamberings. All of these calibers came with 6 shot cylinders except for the 38 Special which was a 5 shot. Undercover revolvers were well made and had a transfer block system for added safety. The transfer block protects against accidental discharge by preventing the hammer from striking the firing pin unless the trigger is actually pulled.

The rimfire versions of the Undercover were renamed in the early 1980s to the Pathfinder, they were a .22LR six-shot configuration with three-inch barrel and ramp front sight. The Pathfinder and was intended for general recreation or as a `kit gun` for hunters and hikers. Later Pathfinder versions added extra barrel lengths, optional large grips, and .22WMR chambering.

Depending on condition and configuration, I see Charter Arms Pathfinder revolvers usually selling in the $175-225 range at gunshows. Marc



15975  - Winchester Model 59 Value
2/23/2019
Amy

Maker: Winchester, Model: 59, Caliber: 22, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: ?, SN: ?

Markings:
22 Short Long And Long Rifle

Question:
Can you give me an idea of hat this is worth ?

 Answer:
Amy thanks for sending the pictures, they really help. The Winchester Model 59 was a low-priced .22 caliber rimfire rifle designed to replace the Models 1902 and 1904. It was an improved version of the earlier Model 58 with 23 inch round barrel and pistol grip stock instead of the straight stock of the Model 58. Rifles were chambered for the .22 Short, Long, and LR interchangeably and were not serial-numbered. The 59 was introduced in 1930, it was dropped from the product line in the same year with a total sales of about 9,000 guns. Values in the blue book for Winchester Model 59 rifles range from $300 to over $1000 depending on condition. From the pictures that you sent, it looks like most of the blued finish on your rifle has turned to a dull brown patina. If this is the case, and there is just about no original finish remaining, value will be in the lower end of the price range. Hope that this helps. Marc



15956  - KRAG VALUE
2/23/2019
Josh Missoula MT Usa

Maker: Krag, Model: 1898, Caliber: 30/40, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Blue, SN: 242978

Question:
Could you help Me determine a value? My email is joshyakos@gmail.com

 Answer:
Josh- Value depends on any documented history and especially the condition of the gun. There is no surviving usage history for you serial number, so that leaves condition. Assuming the gun is still in original as issued condition with 30 inch barrel and full length stock I would expect for find similar guns offered at gun shows priced anywhere from $350 to $900 in average condition, higher if really pristine, less if it has been refinished. However, if it has been ``sporterized`` with the barrel and.or stock cut down, new sights or scope added and well worn or refinished, then it would be more in the $150-350 range, depending mainly on bore condition and overall attractiveness.

Missoula is a beautiful area, and we enjoy it every time we get up that way. John Spangler



15974  - Iver Johnson Target Sealed 8
2/19/2019
Jim Portland , Oregon

Maker: I.J.A. & C.W. Fitchburg, Mass. U.S.A., Model: I J Target Sealed 8, Caliber: .22, Barrel Length: 5 1/2, Finish: Blue, SN: 63XX

Question:
In good shape, worn wood grips, hand cross checked Barrel is Octogon shaped.This was my grand mothers pistol and my question is if you know the age of the weapon and a value.

 Answer:
Jim, you have an Iver Johnson Target Sealed 8. Iver Johnson was a well known manufacturer of inexpensive firearms from 1883 to 1993. The Target Sealed 8 was manufactured from 1931-1957. There is no collector interest in Iver Johnson firearms and values for your Target Sealed 8 fall in the $75.00 to $150.00 range. Marc



15955  - KRAG RIFLE OR CARBINE?
2/19/2019
Steve, Raleigh North Carolina

Maker: Krag, Model: Model 1898, Caliber: 30-40, Barrel Length: 22 Inches, Finish: Blue, SN: 211429

Markings:
Model 1898 Springfield armory 211429 on receiver. JLA 1901 above trigger. Faded 10 and P inside circle behind trigger guard. U on front sling clamp.

Question:
It is configured as a carbine. Interested to know if its been modified or is actually a carbine. Also interested in value.

 Answer:
Steve- A look at Krags for which usage information has survived does not include any carbines plus or minus 3,000 numbers from yours, so it was probably a rifle which was cut down. The fact that there is a ``front sling clamp`` also suggests a rifle as carbines were not made with slings on the barrel band or the buttstock. However a few were modified to add them but they are easy to spot because there is a band spring on the right side ahead of the barrel band, while the rifles just has a pin passing through the stock ahead of the band to make it harder to slip forward. Finally, Model 1898 carbines are generally found under serial number 135,000. When carbine production resumed in 1899 they marked the left side of the receiver MODEL 1899 instead of 1898 as used on the rifles. Value for a cut down rifle depends mainly on the bore condition or how many parts might be salvaged, but probably in the under $500 range, perhaps as little as $150 if rough bore and boogered stock. John Spangler



15953  - MARLIN RIFLE INFORMATION
2/16/2019
Victor Great Falls Mt

Maker: ?, Model: ?, Caliber: ?, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Blue, SN: ?

Question:
Where can I get information on Marlin lever action rifles made from 1907 to 1947?

 Answer:
Victor- The best source of information on Marlin products is William S. Brophy`s definitive Marlin Firearms: A History of the Guns and the Company That Made Them. It is out of print and used copies are bringing pretty hefty prices, but you might find one at under $100 if you get lucky. Another good source is the Marlin Firearms Collectors Association site at https://marlin-collectors.com/forum/ Marlin has a long reputation for making very good quality guns, but they never have done a very good job marketing them so everyone bought or collects Winchesters. Too bad. John Spangler



15982  - Rohm - EIG Model E1
2/16/2019
Russell, West Des Moines, Iowa

Maker: ?, Model: EIG. E1, Caliber: 22 Short, Barrel Length: 4, Finish: Other, SN: 433624

Question:
I know it`s a P.O.S but was wondering what year it was manufactured?

 Answer:
Russell, if memory serves, I believe that the revolvers were imported in the early 1960s. I remember that for some reason that my dad had one. When I was a kid, my friends and I would ride to a local army surplus store on our bikes and buy .22 blanks that came in a little round tin. The little revolver made an excellent, loud cap gun, but that is about all that it was good for.

A quick Google search came up with the following information from the Gun Values Board:

This revolver is made of inferior materials and poor workmanship and was banned from importation as a "Saturday Night Special" by the 1968 Gun Control Act. These revolvers are illegal for a licensed dealer in several states to sell or even repair and they are not considered safe to used with any ammunition.

In all fairness, Röhm made a few different .22 revolvers and they were vastly different in quality. However, most folks have seen the RG10, a small double action gun. These are the worst of the worst for the following reasons.

  • The frames were made of a very weak metal alloy that tended to fracture.
  • The frames were not screwed or pinned together, they were pressed together like a toy cap gun.
  • The pins holding the internal parts would wallow out the holes they were inserted into causing the mechanism to rattle around and get out of time.
  • With the gun out of time, it either would not rotate the cylinder, or even worse, lock it up with the chamber not in alignment with the barrel. Then, when you fired, shards of hot lead now sprayed out of either side of the cylinder gap.
  • Repeated firing ( say 10 or so cylinders full), with repeated misaligned bullets battering the rear of the barrel could cause the barrel to loosen and fall off.

Hopefully the above reasons have given you an idea of why the RG 10, and all of its clones, are often named “The Worst Guns Ever Made”.

Röhm also turned out a single action model in .22lr that was a semi-clone of the Colt SAA (think cowboy gun) that was fairly well made of much better steel with a respectable amount of quality control. That is a different gun altogether.

Hope this helps, Marc



15973  - US Military Ithaca Model 37 Shotguns
2/12/2019
Troy, Flagstaff, AZ, USA

Maker: Ithaca, Model: Model 37, Caliber: 12 Gauge Shotgun, Barrel Length: Approx. 30 Inches, Finish: ?, SN: 45XXX

Question:
I understand the Ithaca Mod 37 was used by US forces in WW2. I am curious if the old model 37 I have might be one of them, or how I might be able to find out if it is.

 Answer:
Troy, when the Ithaca Model 37 was standardized on August 7, 1941, it was envisioned that the company would turn out large numbers of the weapons in the event of war. After Pearl Harbor, Ithaca was given several contracts for the production of military shotguns, but after the delivery of 12,433 shotguns, it was decided that Ithaca should concentrate on increasing its production of the M1911A1 .45 pistol and the production of shotguns was halted. Ithaca delivered three types of model 37 shotguns to the military during WWII, trench guns, riot guns and training guns.

Ithaca Model 37 trench guns manufactured under government contract during WWII were fitted with ventilated metal handguard/bayonet adapter assemblies. The Ithaca handguard had six rows of ventilation holes. The WWII Model 37 Ithaca trench gun was finished in commercial grade blue, including the handguard/adapter assembly and had standard sling swivels. The stock was plain and unadorned and was not stamped with an inspector's cartouche. The forend had parallel grasping grooves. The only martial markings observed on the trench guns were "RLB" stamped on the left side of the receiver next to a small Ordnance Department flaming bomb and a small "p" proof mark on the left side of the barrel. The "RLB" initials were those of inspector Lt. Col. Roy L. Bowlin, Chief of the Rochester Ordnance District. Observed trench gun serial numbers range from: #61038 to #61856. All known original WWII Model 37 trench guns have the "RLB" marking on the left side of the receiver.

Ithaca delivered a number of riot gun versions of its Model 37 to the government during WWII. Most of the WWII M37 riot guns were converted from commercial shotguns and will have such features as checkered wood and finely blued metal. Riot gun martial markings varied somewhat and many of the early riot guns did not have the "RLB" marking found on the M37 trench guns. A few of the later riot guns were essentially identical to the WWII Model 37 trench guns except for the ventilated metal handguard/bayonet adapter and sling swivels. Some Model 37 riot guns underwent arsenal rebuilding during and after WWII. There were large numbers of Ithaca Model37 riot guns manufactured after the Second World War. Most of them were for police and civilian use but some were made under government contract for use in Vietnam.

There were a number of skeet/trap type Model 37 shotguns delivered during WWII for training purposes. Some of these guns were standard civilian production guns with no modifications except government ownership markings. Training shot gun barrel lengths were 28" and 30". John tells me that most serial numbers of the examples of these that he has seen are in the 51,000 range. There is a "U.S." under the "R.L.B./ordnance bomb" on some of these.

If your Model 37 does not have any government markings it is unlikely that it is US Military issue... Marc



15948  - SAVAGE .22 WITH THREADED BARREL
2/12/2019
Bruce, Richmond, NH, USA

Maker: Savage Arms, Model: 1903, 1906,1909, Caliber: .22 S, L, Lr, Barrel Length: 24”, Finish: Blue, SN: 64.580

Markings:
Front of barrel in threaded and is printed Pat. Dec. 25, 1906

Question:
What is the actual model number, year of manufacture and why or for what purpose is the threaded end of the bell for.

 Answer:
Bruce- I really don`t know much about Savages (and to be brutally honest don`t care about them at all). I think you probably have a Model 1903, but it may be a later variation that I was unable to find anything about before my give a darn alarm went off.

However, the threaded barrel is easier to explain. In 1909 Hiram Percy Maxim introduced .22 caliber silencers to the commercial market. (He was the son of Hiram maxim, the Machine gun guy, in case the name sounds familiar.) These were quite popular and at only $7.00 each a lot were sold. However, in 1934 the National Firearms Act was passed which dictated a $200.00 transfer tax on any silencer as well as machine guns, on the pretext that criminals might use them. Recently there has been action in Congress to ease restrictions on silencers, but the usual suspects have kept up the scare tactics so no changes are likely in the foreseeable future. So, in 1934 silencers basically were outlawed unless the $200 tax was paid, which accounts for a lot of guns with threaded muzzles where owners of silencers just got rid of them rather than paying $200 tax to keep a $7 item. For more history on these see a good article in the November 2011 Small Arms Review magazine, the best publication for all ``class 3`` matters. http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=235 Hope that helps. John Spangler



15978  - Savage Arms Model 101 Single Shot
2/9/2019
Sherry

Maker: Savage Arms, Model: 101, Caliber: 22, Barrel Length: Long Rifle, Finish: Other, SN: 27934

Question:
I was just wanting to know what year it was made and what it`s worth? Thank you so much!

 Answer:
Sherry, Savage introduced their Model 101 in 1960, it was a single action, single shot, .22 handgun with 5.5 in. barrel and adjustable sights. Although it was styled to look like a Colt Single Action Army revolver, the cylinder and barrel formed a single unit which was swung out of the frame to allow a single cartridge to be loaded. The model was manufactured from 1960 to about 1968. There is not much collector interest in this model and values are modest, they usually sell for $175 or less. Marc



15942  - REMINGTON MODEL 9 SHOTGUN
2/9/2019
jeremie. atchison,ks

Maker: Remington, Model: 1122?, Caliber: ?, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Blue, SN: 134651?

Question:
I have a Remington single shot shotgun. the patent dates on the side are 1894,1904 and 1905. it is stamped with the numbers 134651 in 3 different places and 1122 on the receiver under the barrel. I`m trying to figure out what these numbers are, what model it is and where I can purchase a stock and forearm. any help would be GREATLY APPRECIATED. thank you

 Answer:
Jeremie- Remington made break open single barrel shotguns starting in 1893 as the Model 1893. These had a button on the front of the forend you would press to remove the forend. These were made circa 1893-1903 in 10, 12, 16, 20, 24 and 28 gauge. In 1902 a new version using a screw fastened forend replaced the 1893 and continued in production until about 1910. Total production of both models was about 50,000.

Since production was only about 50,000 and ended around 1910, we can rule out the 1122 as a manufacture date. The 134651 may be a serial number, but I am not sure that Remington used serial numbers on all their guns at that time, so it may have been added later by someone else.

Finding a stock set will be tough as these were inexpensive guns, made in relatively small numbers so there is not a big demand for them. In addition, these were made for black powder shotshells and are probably not safe to use with modern ammunition. Search for Remington 9 shotgun parts and you might find something. Good luck. John Spangler



15972  - Hunter 20 Gauge
2/5/2019
Susan

Maker: Hunter Arms Co, Model: The Fulton, Caliber: 20g, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Don't Know, SN: 36728

Markings:
The Fulton .

Question:
What is the history and value of this gun

 Answer:
Susan, your shotgun was made by the same people who manufactured the famous L.C. Smith shotguns (and later M1903A3 rifles). Fulton-Hunter Arms shotguns were the economy model, just a good basic shotgun. The last Hunter shotgun that we had sold for around $200 but it was a 12 gauge. It looks like they are going in the $200 to $300 range on Gun Broker. Marc



15960  - AMCO M1 Carbine Barrel Markings
2/5/2019
Ian Twain Harte CA

Maker: Inland General Motors -44, Model: M1 Carbine, Caliber: .30, Barrel Length: Approx 20 Inches, Finish: Blue, SN: 1780871

Markings:
AMCO on barrel cover EU on front sight Mwa on trigger housing DIV on barrel Paratrooper model-has steel rod with butt of rifle that has buttons on sides that allow the steel rod to pull out and lock for the stock.

Question:
Since I can find nothing like the stock on the Internet and the serial number doesn`t match the Inland designation, what is this? Looks new or unused. Thanks

 Answer:
Ian- I regret that I cannot help much on this one. The markings on an Inland manufactured barrel should read in three lines: INLAND MFG DIV/GENERAL MOTORS/ [date month-year such as 3-44]. The receiver should be marked behind the rear sight INLAND DIV over the serial number 1780971 was in the range assigned to Irwin-Pedersen and taken over by Saginaw Steering Gear (S`G`). The steel rod stock does not sound at all like a standard M1A1 folding stock and I am sure you saw lots of those when you searched. It sounds more like a telescoping stock than a folding design. No military carbines used telescoping stocks, so the stock (at least) has to be commercial. Makers of telescoping stocks include Owens, Plainfield and Iver Johnson and probably a few others. There were many more makers of commercial copies of the M1 carbine than most people realize. I highly recommend people check out the fantastic accumulation of M1 Carbine related information at http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/ which covers every aspect of M1 Carbines and their history. This included all the commercial copies. The navigation is a bit confusing, but if you poke around you will find tons of interesting stuff, and it is all thoroughly vetted by experts, and clear to distinguish known facts from speculation. The information on commercial carbine copies is especially worthwhile to review the history of each company, and the people involved. Many of the same names pop up repeatedly and the companies often were engaged in all sorts of surplus arms importation and sales under various names back in the golden age in the 1960s. You will find some info on various stocks there, as well as details on and astounding 39 commercial makers! Maybe you can find some matches for your markings by reviewing all of those. John Spangler



15971  - Mauser Model 1934
2/2/2019
Gary, Carpentersville, IL

Maker: Mauser Pistol, Model: Unknown, Caliber: 7,65, Barrel Length: About 3¨, Finish: Blued, SN: 529XXX

Markings:
Left side: serial and MAUSER-WERKE A.G. OBERNDORF a.N. on slide - Mauser logo on frame Right side: Cal. 7,65-D.R.P.u.A.P.Bottom of frame next to trigger has last 3 digits of serial number '061'Same on rear of frame above grip. Matching serial numbers, leather holster, Mauser magazine, checkered walnut grips. Includes export certificate from Allied occupational forces with description & serial. Very clean.

Question:
What, when, and who? Also approximate value appreciated. Thanks Gary M. Rose NRA Endowment member.

 Answer:
Gary, your description leads me to believe that you have a Model 1934 Mauser. Mauser Werke of Obendorf, Germany manufactured the Model 1934 from 1934 to 1941. Model 1934's were procured by the German military in 1940 and 1941 and have serial numbers between 589562 - 624225. Values for commercial 1934 Mausers run from around $150 to about $450 depending upon condition, capture papers and a holster could add 10 to 20 percent. Marc



15937  - S&W ``TRIPLE ALPHA`` SERIAL NUMBERS
2/2/2019
Ang,Orlando,Fl, USA

Maker: Smith And Wesson, Model: ?, Caliber: 9mm, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Blue, SN: HDC1779

Question:
What is the model of this S&W, barrel length, capacity

 Answer:
Ang- If you don`t know the barrel length when you have the gun, I don`t know how I can figure it out. Magazine capacity can be determined by stuffing 9mm cartridges into it and counting how many fit.

The model should be marked on the gun.

The serial number has what S&W collectors call a ``Triple Alpha`` prefix. This uses three letters followed by a 4 digit number. The letters are more or less used in sequence, but not exactly, and it looks like they have certain blocks set aside for different models. There is a lengthy thread on the S&W Collectors forum on this subject, started by S&W expert and author Jim Supica, who is also the curator of the NRA National Firearms Museum. Anyone with questions on the Triple Alpha numbers needs to read that and see what they can learn from it, or perhaps add their info to help solve the puzzle.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/standard-catalogue-s-w-4th-ed/449373-serial-number-help-needed-recent-guns-triple-alpha-prefixes-post138766470.html

It looks like letter groups starting with ``H`` were used on the S&W M&P model pistols (including several variations). No one listed a HDC number, but based on patterns with other letters including HD(?) it seems that HDC was probably used in late 1915 or early 1916.

Hope that helps. John Spangler