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16252 - RELIC DUAL RIMFIRE CARTRIDGE CASE
4/28/2020
Colin

Maker: ?, Model: ?, Caliber: ?, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: ?, SN: ?

Question:
Hello, thanks for taking the time to look this over for me. I found this shell while metal detecting in a field in a small town just outside of Vancouver B.C. and found it really interesting that it is a dual rim fire shell. I just wanted to know what caliber, Maker and when this ammunition was used? If you could send me a email I can send you pictures of the shell. This link will not let me add photos. Thank you, Colin

Answer:
Colin- The photos help a lot. Your cartridge is a .41 Swiss rimfire, a bottle necked case about 1.5 inches long. It is also known as 10.4 x 38mm Rimmed, used in the bolt action Swiss Vetterli rifles which were made circa 1868-1889. They were made in large numbers, very well made, and cared for, and were sold off as surplus about 1900. Many made their way to North America where they were inexpensive guns, especially for farmers and ranchers. Winchester and Remington made .41 Swiss rimfire ammo up until about 1940. The Vetterli rifles are among the few which use dual firing pin strikers, which would pretty much guarantee the cartridge would fire. In the early cartridge manufacture days, some time the primer mix did not get evenly distributed and there was a remote chance a single firing pin strike might not fire it.

The other possibility would have been .44 Winchester rimfire. But, that case is only 23mm long (about 15/16`` and yours is much longer, so that rules the .44 Winchester out. It was used in the Model 1866 lever action rifle, with dual firing pins.

Monetary value on one like this is about zero, but it is a neat artifact and piece of history of your area.

Hope that helps.

John Spangler

16257 - Police Sauer Model 38 H
4/28/2020
Len Scibilia

Maker: Sauer, Model: M38, Caliber: 7.65, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: ?, SN: ?

Question:
I acquired a pistol which is, I believe a M38 Sauer. It has 2 eagle N proofs(Frame and slide) and on the trigger guard is a small eagle and swastika. To the right of this mark is the letter C (or possibly a badly struck O).Is this a polizei pistol? Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Answer:
Len, your Sauer should have 3 Eagle over N commercial test proofs, one on the right side of the barrel near the muzzle, one on the right side of the slide above the slide grip, and one on the right side of the frame to the rear of the grip. The left side of the slide should be marked J.P. SAUER & SON CAL 7.65 or CAL 7.65. The right side of the slide may or may not be marked PATENT. The serial number should be stamped on the right side of the frame below the slide grip and the last three digits of the serial number should be stamped on the lower front of the slide where the muzzle contour begins. One of the police acceptance stamps that was used on the Sauer Model 38H is an eagle over an X inside a circle with the letter C stamped to the left. The police acceptance stamp should be located on the upper portion of the trigger guard near the frame... Marc

16196 - MARLIN MODEL 80
4/25/2020

Maker: ?, Model: ?, Caliber: ?, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: ?, SN: ?

Question:
I have a Marlin Model 80 Bolt Action .22 lr with a 22`` bbl that has no serial number.

Stamped on the barrel is: ``The Marlin Firearms Co. New Haven,Conn. USA Model 80-Micro-Groove Barrel-.22 cal S.-L.-LR.`` There are also the letters ``BL`` stamped where I expected to find ``JM``.

I was trying to look up the Mfg. date but I need a serial number. There is none

Answer:
Sir- We know it was made before 1968 when the requirement that all guns have serial numbers became law. Production of the Model 80 began in 1941 and ended in 1971. That`s all we know. John Spangler

16194 - MARBLES BLACK STONE
4/25/2020
steve Baker City, OR, USA

Maker: Marbles Black Stone, Model: ?, Caliber: ?, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Blue, SN: 628621

Question:
how old is this gun and what may it be worth?

Answer:
Steve- Sorry, I have no idea what this might be. John Spangler

16256 - Marlin 22
4/25/2020
Marlin Firearms Corporation

Maker: Unknown, Model: 22 Long Rifle, Caliber: 21 3/4 Inches, Barrel Length: Blue Orginal, Now Worn & Slightly Rusty, Finish: None, SN: ?

Markings:
None

Question:
This rifle is an automatic, it has no model number, and is clip fed. It is an open breach, blow-back type with the fireing pin being a raised ridge across the face of the bolt. There is no ejector as the bolt is blown back a small pin located in the wall of the receiver hits the base of the cartridge and kick the empty out. My question is does it have a model #, and when was it manufactured? Thanks for your help.

Answer:
From 1930 to date, Marlin has made more than 25 different models of .22 cal. semi-automatic rimfire rifles. These Marlin’s have normally been good quality, inexpensive weapons. In 1960, the name Glenfield was also used in connection with inexpensive Marlin rifles. Because of the quantity of models that Marlin has turned out in the last 65+ years it would be hard to determine what model that you have. Used values for this type of Marlin are usually in the $100 or less range... Marc

16193 - ENDERS ROYAL SERVICE SHOTGUN SAFETY
4/21/2020
Tim, Alabama

Maker: Enders Royal 12 Gauge, Model: 12 Gauge Shotgun, Caliber: 12 Gauge, Barrel Length: 30 Inch, Finish: Blue, SN: 22983

Markings:
There is a stamp but cant make it out

Question:
Gun is in good shape snaps closed real tight. Gunsmith said I need to know if it was powder ammo. Concerned todays modern shells may harm gun and shooter. Gunsmith said I may try 8 shot bird to be safe. Just need to know if todays shells will work and what length.

Answer:
Tim- Enders Royal Service was a trade name used on guns made by the Hunter Arms Company of Fulton, NY (1890 to 1945) for the Shapleigh hardware Company of St. Louis, MO a wholesale sporting goods dealer.

I do not know if it was made for use with black powder or smokeless ammunition. I also do not know if it was made for shells 2 5/8`` long (the old rolled crimp) or 2 3/4`` long with the pie crust type crimps.

Frankly, I am not sure your gunsmith knows all that much about old guns. He may be great for Glocks and AR-15 stuff, and maybe even modern shotguns. But, the size of the shot in a shotshell does not make it more or less safe to shoot. A 1 ounce load of #8 shot has the same pressure and internal ballistic stressed on the gun as if it were any other shot size. You might find a #8 load with a lighter weight of shot or smaller powder charge than other shot sizes, but it has nothing to do with how big the pellets are, only how much they weigh all together. The time span for possible date of manufacture extends into both the black powder and smokeless powder eras. To be on the safe side, I would advise against shooting it. Maybe you can find some light loads. I think the cowboy action shooters use lighter loads than hunters or trap/skeet shooters. I have not seen your gun, and am not a qualified gunsmith, so you should discuss with your gunsmith and see what he says. After all, he is the one your heirs will sue if things go badly. John Spangler

16255 - Ortgies 6.35 MM Pistol
4/21/2020
Robert

Maker: Ortgies Patent, Model: Small Semi Auto Pistol, Caliber: 6.35mm, Barrel Length: Approximately 3 Inch, Finish: Blue Steel With Wood Grips, SN: 34XX

Markings:
left side /ORTGIES PATENT DEUTSCHE WERKE AKTIENGESELLSCHAFT,WERK ENFURT RIGHT SIDE/LETTER N WITH TYPE OF CROWN WITH CROSS ON TOP OF IT. SE.#34XX UNDER SIDE OF RECEIVER NEAR FRONT. CALIBER 6.35 MARKEDON BBL. IN BREECH.

Question:
I would like to know the value, age ,history and if ammo is still available? my email address is ka2owz@hotmail.com

Answer:
Robert, The founder of Ortgies (Heinrich Ortgies) was a German but he lived in Liege for many years, and may have been connected with the firearms business there. During his residence in Belgium, Ortgies designed an automatic pistol incorporating certain ingenious details which he patented in about 1916. After WWI, Ortgies returned to Germany and set up in business in Erfurt manufacturing the Ortgies pistol. Ortgies manufactured upwards of 10,000 pistols and they proved to be such a great success that Deutsche Werke of Erfurt made him an attractive offer to buy his business which he accepted. In 1921 Deutsche Werke took over the Ortgies patents, tools and stock, and began making Ortgies pistols. Original Orgies made pistols are marked on the slide 'Ortgies & Co Erfurt Ortgies Patent', the grips came with a bronze medallion with the intertwined initials 'HO', these grip medallions were retained by Deutsche Werke for some years, and they also retained the wording 'Ortgies Patent'. Later production dropped both these features. Unfortunately there is not much collector interest in Ortgies pistols and values for them fall in the $125.00 range... Marc

16191 - GERGE S PATTON COMMEMORATIVE COLT SAA
4/18/2020
James, Heartland Texas

Maker: Colt`sPT.FA MFG. Co Hartford Ct, USA, Model: Colt Cowboy .45, Caliber: .45, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Blue, SN: ?

Markings:
Nickel plated completely engraved with white grips that have a red, white and blue emblem that says 1885 on top then has 4 stars and 1945 on the bottom.

Question:
is this pistol worth anything?

Answer:
James- Your pistol is a commemorative made by Uberti in Italy, heavily engraved and silver plated. The bottom of the barrel is probably marked ``American Historical Foundation Richmond, VA`` which was the outfit who marketed them. The imitation ivory grips have the medallion you described on the right side along with the initials GSP. Four star General George S. Patton was born in 1885 and died in a vehicle accident in 1945, explaining the features of the medallion. These are real guns, chambered for .45 Colt cartridges.

In my opinion, this is one of the nicest of the commemoratives put out by the American Historical Foundation. They have issued dozens, or maybe even hundreds of commemorative guns celebrating various service branches, battles, leaders, etc, and I think maybe even National Jello Week. Initial prices were quite high, the embellishments ranging from attractive to gaudy and apparently they have been quite successful selling them. Purchasers do not seem to have much luck reselling most of them, even at deep discounts from the initial price. So, if you like one of these flashy guns commemorating something, go for it. If buying for an investment- I would avoid most of these.

The Patton commemorative is pretty classy looking and I think has a bit more demand than most of its cousins. They came with a nylon tie in the cylinder, and tag explaining that as long as the tie and tag are intact the gun has not been fired since manufacture. However, the plating can wear off and the guns will look ugly then.

I found a couple of cases where these were sold, but not a solid feel for value. Uberti copies of the Colt SAA seem to sell new for about $500-600 retail. Add a couple hundred for the engraving and plating and something around $1,000 might be a good guess. Auction houses seem to be getting maybe $1,200-1,500, and I am not sure if that includes all their fees and premiums. So, yes, the gun is worth something, just as a nice looking gun, and maybe more to someone who likes the Patton connection. Hope that helps. John Spangler

16254 - Albion No. 2 Mark 1 Revolver
4/18/2020
Daryl, Santee, Ca

Maker: ALBION, Model: MK I 1943, Caliber: 38, Barrel Length: 6¨?, Finish: Blue, SN: UNKNOWN

Question:
Llooking for history on this pistol.

Answer:
Daryl, The No. 2 Mark 1 revolver was officially adopted by the British government on June 2, 1932. No. 2 Mark 1 ** revolvers were made by Enfield and by Albion Motors at Glasgow. Singer Sewing Machine of Great Britain made No. 2 Mark 1 ** parts, which were assembled into complete revolvers at Enfield. In 1957, No. 2 Mark 1 ** revolvers were dropped as standard service issue and replaced by the FN Browning Hi-Power semi automatic pistol. No. 2 Mark 1 ** revolvers are still in extensive use in former British territories and are considered a reserve weapon in the United Kingdom... Marc

16229 - Winchester 1886
4/14/2020
William

Maker: Winchester, Model: 1886, Caliber: ?, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Don`t Know, SN: 103325

Markings:
40-65 W.C.F. PAT.OCT14.1884 JAN.20.1885

Question:
Just wanted to know more about this Winchester...if this is a good rifle? possible value? Should I clean it up? I may end up selling it. Thank you

Answer:
William, the Winchester Model 1886 was John Browning`s first high power lever action rifle design, it had a 26 in. round or octagon barrel, tubular magazine, steel forend cap, and a straight walnut stock. The 1886 was offered in .33 WCF, .30-56 WCF, .38-70 WCF, .40-65 WCF, .40-70 WCF, .40-82 WCF, .45-70, .45-90, .50-110 Express, and .50-100-450. The 1886 is distinguishable by the vertical locking bars that it employs. Winchester manufactured approximately 159,990, model 1886 rifles between 1886 and 1935. Our Winchester Dates of Manufacture link will tell you that your model 1886 was manufactured in 1895. Things that are old and have ``Winchester`` stamped on them are just about always valuable. Values for Winchester 1886 rifles chambered in 50-110 can go as high as $6000 depending upon condition. It is best that you do not try to clean it up, let us know if you want to sell it. Marc

16190 - M1903 SPRINGFIELD
4/14/2020
Mark, Amarillo, TX

Maker: Springfield, Model: 1903, Caliber: 30-06, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Blue, SN: 1354192

Markings:
Barrel is marked 5-42.

Question:
I have my father in law`s service rifle and understand based on the serial number that the receiver was manufactured in 1930. Did they rebarrel them prior to issue during WW2 or never barrel them in 1930? Just trying to understand the barrel date of 5-42? He served from early1942-46 and passed a couple years ago at 95 years old.

Answer:
Mark- Your research is correct that the receiver was probably made in 1930, and it may have been assembled into a complete rifle then, or perhaps not until the start of WW2. Due to the depression, military funding was slashed and the Army strengths was cut, and weapons production slowed way down. By 1935 it was clear that the M1 Garand was going to be adopted and M1903 production slowed even more. In 1942 the shortage of arms resulted in assembly of a lot of M1903 rifles at Springfield from parts which had been kept as ``spares.``

As far as use by your father, that may or may not be accurate. Quite often family members hear stories about ``I was in [whichever] war and carried a gun just like this one that I bought from [Bannerman, surplus store, gun show] a few years ago.`` They often forget the minor details, and the ``same as`` gun becomes the ``exact`` which was carried. Uncle Sam tended to frown upon soldiers taking their weapons home, most of the time. But, sometimes it was authorized with the cost deducted from the soldier`s pay. Other times they just fell into a barracks bag and were discovered when the soldier got home, and the supply guys were stuck doing creative accounting to make their records balance.

So, it is possibly the gun he carried, but not certain. Regardless, the association as one of your father`s guns should make it special to you. Enjoy. John Spangler

16253 - Winchester Model 70 In 25-06
4/11/2020
Matt

Maker: Winchester, Model: 70, Caliber: ?, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: ?, SN: ?

Question:
If I`m being perfectly honest, I`m not entirely sure what I have exactly. It says ``Winchester Model 70 - CAL. 25-06`` and then underneath it just says ``- Made in New Haven Conn. USA Winchester Proof Steel - `` It was passed down to me after my father and I`m looking to sell it (I want to purchase a newer long gun in 6.5 CM. Anyway, do you have any interest and/or any information as to what I have and what it`s worth? Look forward to speaking with you soon.

Answer:
Matt, we do not deal much with modern commercial firearms at Oldguns.net, our main focus is WWII and older Military. I have always liked Pre-1964 Winchester Model 70 rifles but if memory serves correctly the 25-06 cartridge was first sold by Remington in around 1969 so your rifle is almost certainly not a Pre-1964. My guess is that a Post-1964 Winchester Model 70 in 25-06 would sell in the $400 to $700 range depending on condition but it may be a slow seller. This is not the kind of thing that we focus on at OldGuns.net so we are not interested in making an offer, you probably will come out best by selling locally. Marc

16188 - HOPKINS & ALLEN FLILNTLOCK PISTOL
4/11/2020
Jim, NY, USA

Maker: Hopkins -A- Allen, Model: 10, Caliber: 45, Barrel Length: 10'', Finish: Blue, SN: 2296

Markings:
black powder only

Question:
Came into a Hopkins -A- Allen model 10 black powder pistol. I`ve been trying to research it but can` find any info. on it. It`s in pretty good shape, trying to find out a year of mfg. and a possible value. Any help / insights greatly appreciated.

Answer:
Jim- Your gun is one of the muzzle loaders sold by Numrich Gun Parts Co. of West Hurley, NY, in 1960s-70s after they bought the Hopkins & Allen name. They made a variety of inexpensive muzzle loading guns, either finished or sold as kits, including rifles and pistols, either flintlock or percussion. While they may be fun shooters with black powder, there is not really much collector interest or value in them. I would expect to find a pistol of this type at a gun show price around $100 but the owner might be eager to accept an offer lower, or much lower than that, just to make it go away. John Spangler

16186 - MARLIN MODEL 92 DATE
4/7/2020
North Bangor New York

Maker: Marlin, Model: 92, Caliber: 22 Cal., Barrel Length: 24'', Finish: Blue, SN: 897656

Markings:
Takedown

Question:
Could you kindly tell what year this gun is?

Answer:
Sir- The table mentioned in a previous answer on Marlins indicates that the Model 1892 or 92 was made circa 1895-1915. Based on the serial number, your rifle was made after 1906, probably closer to 1915. John Spangler

16249 - Sauer Pistol In Germany
4/7/2020
Germany

Maker: J.P. Sauer & Sohn, Model: ?, Caliber: 7.65, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Don`t Know, SN: 402674

Markings:
German eagle

Question:
Where can I find parts and info?

Answer:
The answer to your question depends on information that you did not send me. It is impossible to give you an accurate answer without at lest knowing what model you have.

One often encounters Sauer Model 38 pistols from WWII and there is a good possibility that this is what you have. You can recognize a Sauer 38 because it has a unique internal hammer which is linked to a de-cocking lever on the left side of the frame. If the hammer is cocked, pressing the de-cocking lever will allow it to fall under control without detonating a cartridge. If the hammer is down, downward pressure on the de-cocking lever will lift the hammer to full-cock. Model 38 lock work is double-action and there is a magazine safety, and a chamber-loaded signal pin. Some very early model 38`s and those made in 1944 and 1945 do not have a safety catch. Model 38 slides are marked `JP Sauer & Sohn Cal 7,65` on the left, and `Patent` on the right. Model 38 grips carry the Sauer monogram (S&S) on the left hand side.

Because of the hammer-cocking/de-cocking lever, the Sauer 38 is one of the most advanced pistol designs ever to be mass-produced. The German designation for the weapon was Sauer Pistole Model 38 Hahn Selbstspannung (Sauer Pistol Model 38 Hammer Self cocking. Over 200,000 model 38 pistols were procured by the German military, NSDAP and Police before the U.S. overran the factory in April of 1945.

If your pistol was military issue, it should have the military acceptance stamp (eagle over 37) located on the upper left side of trigger guard. All pistols should have the commercial test proof (eagle over n) located on the right side of the slide above the slide grip, on the right side of the frame below the slide grip, and on the right side of the barrel near the muzzle. Pistols procured by the police will be marked with police acceptance stamps (eagle over ``X`` in a circle to the left of ``C`` or ``F``) located on the left trigger guard web.

For parts, try Gun Parts Corporation. Hope this helps, Marc

16237 - History For An 1863 Trapdoor
4/4/2020
John,Tyler, Texas

Maker: Springfield, Model: 1863 Trapdoor, Caliber: 50/70, Barrel Length: 30.5'', Finish: Blue, SN: 22933

Markings:
On side plate 1863, US Springfield. - On trapdoor ''1870 US''. -On buttplate ''US SC''. On barrel each band it has a ''U'' stamped on each one. On receiver and barrel has serial #.

Question:
Where can I get some history on this rifle?

Answer:
John, unfortunately records simply do not exist for probably 90% or more of all the military small arms issued. For U.S. military small arms, the Springfield Research Service, (SRS) is the only source that I know of where information of the sort that you are looking for can be obtained. In the past Springfield Research Service has been a good resource, but ownership passed to new people a few years back and since that happened, I have not felt that any of my interactions with them have been useful. I still have a copy of old SRS data which was obtained before the change of hands at SRS and I can tell you that there is no listing for serial number 22933. Marc

16187 - MARLIN 1889 MARKED AUGUSTA POLICE 46
4/4/2020
clay

Maker: Marlin, Model: 1889, Caliber: 44/40, Barrel Length: 24, Finish: Blue, SN: 49273

Markings:
left side of gun has augusta police 46 engraved

Question:
who was the augusta police and what do you think its worth im wanting to sell it.

Answer:
Clay- We appreciate your offering us this item, but we will pass on it. You will probably do better selling it locally. We just don`t get into Marlins or police marked guns, although there are people who like those sorts of things.

Augusta PD could refer to any of the U.S. cities named Augusta (see list below). However, my guess, based on the date and the number 46 is that it is most likely associated with Augusta, Maine or possibly Georgia. I would expect it might bring 10-20% more than a comparable condition gun without the police markings, from the right buyer.

• Augusta, Arkansas

• Augusta, Georgia

• Augusta, Illinois

• Augusta, Indiana

• Augusta, Indianapolis, Indiana

• Augusta, Kansas

• Augusta, Kentucky

• Augusta, Maine (capital city of Maine)

• Augusta, Michigan

• Augusta, Minnesota

• Augusta, Missouri

• Augusta, Montana

• Augusta, New Jersey

• Augusta, New York

• North Augusta, South Carolina

• Augusta, West Virginia

• Augusta, Wisconsin

Hope that helps. John Spangler

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