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15682 - Walther Sportmodel
9/30/2017
Brittani Ashland, KY

Maker: Walther, Model: Sportmodel, Caliber: 22, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Blue, SN: 32193W

Question:
We have a German .22 single shot bolt action rifle that was taken from a German home during the war. It was brought back over from a family member and passed down. We were wondering where we would go about finding more information on how much it would be worth. We also have a letter from the NRA from the 70s where our grand dad asked about it. Back then they told him it was worth $60! It has a cool story behind it so we were looking for any information you may have for us! Thanks!

Answer:
Donald, rifle shooting was a traditional sport among German civilians, and encouraged even more after Hitler's rise to power. I suspect that similar types of rifles were used in anything from the Munich Beer, Bowling, and Rifle League to the local Boy Scouts, to the equivalent of the VFW's shooting team, as well as Hitler Youth. The .22 cal Sportmodell Rifle was a military style .22 trainer, they had full length stock and military type sling attachment and bolt disassembly washers in the butt. These are well made and accurate rifles, suitable for a WW2 German collection, or a Walther collection. Nice examples are tough to find and values can go higher than $1000.00. Marc

15656 - Mississippi Yangur Rifle
9/30/2017
Gabriel

Maker: ?, Model: ?, Caliber: ?, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: ?, SN: ?

Question:
Hi- I'm an author researching for my latest book (about a Victorian plant hunter who travelled thousands of miles on foot across North America). I have a letter written in 1854 by someone in San Francisco which is actually quite an entertaining one (see below) which mentions a Mississippi Yangur.

" . . . he says the only satisfaction you can get out of a fellow of that kind is to come out here and shoot him through the navel with a Mississippi Yangur, nobody will say anything to you; or if there is an investigation it will be brought in justifiable homicide."

I have not been able to find out anything about it, and even Google draws a blank! I wondered if you could help please. I'd be delighted to acknowledge any help in the book. Thanks. Gabriel

Answer:
Gabriel- I think you have met the dual curse of researchers where poor penmanship and erroneous names combine to a mysterious term.

If this "Mississippi Yangur" is even remotely in the context of firearms, then it almost certainly refers the U.S. Model 1841 .54 caliber percussion rifle. These are exceptionally handsome pieces, with most of the hardware made from brass, a nice walnut stock, and the barrel a brown color and the lock sort of a mottled mix of black, gray, blue and straw colors.

Adopted in 1841, these first saw action during the Mexican war where a regiment of volunteers from Mississippi under command of Colonel, later Secretary of War and even later President of the Confederate States of America, Jefferson Davis. Hence the "Mississippi" name which helped distinguish them from 2 or 3 other models of rifles then in use by the Army.

Also, the brass appearance and rifled bore resembled (to some extent, but not a lot) the German rifles used by hunters or elite rifle armed German regiments known as Jaegers, often written Yaegers, or just Yagers. Since both Yaeger and Mississippi were both unofficial nicknames, their use would be inconsistent and vary with whoever was telling the story and used as a single descriptive term, or combined to perhaps make the term clear to an audience who was only familiar with one of the terms, but not all knowing the same term.

These rifles were made by about 6 or 8 different makers, but the nicknames seemed more descriptive than worrying about who made them.

Most of these rifles remained in the Army inventory until the Civil War where they were often modified to add a bayonet, and sometimes to enlarge the bore to .58 caliber to use the then standard .58 caliber ammunition. Some may have escaped military custody prior to the Civil War either by losses in Indian fighting, a few being taken off by deserters, and maybe a few rifles rejected by the Army being sold by the makers on the civilian market.

Some photos and more history are here:

https://www.collegehillarsenal.com/shop/product.php?productid=1003

and some more photos here:

http://campsiteartifacts.com/whitneym1841mississippi.html

Hope that helps. John Spangler

15691 - U.S. Revolver Co Caliber
9/26/2017
Roger,Cortland,OH

Maker: U.S. Revolver Co, Model: Don`t Know, Caliber: What I Want To Find Out, Barrel Length: 3 - /4'', Finish: Nickel, SN: 25045

Markings:
I can not find any other markings.

Question:
Trying to determine caliber.

Answer:
Roger, Arms made under the U.S. Revolver Co. name were cheaper versions of the Iver Johnson line. U.S. Revolver Co. paralleled the solid frame Iver Johnson Model 1900 and the Hinged Frame Safety Automatic models, but did not have the safety hammer feature, they also had some consequent minor changes in the lockwork and a lesser quality of finish. U.S. revolvers were offered in .22, .32 and .38 calibers, and were sold at the same time as the main Iver Johnson line until the 1940s. The revolvers were marked 'U.S. Revolver Co.' on the barrel, and had 'US' molded into the grips. Without seeing your revolver, there is no way for me to determine the caliber. I suggest that you take it to a gunsmith who will be able to examine and take measurements. Marc

15655 - Springfield M1903 With Remington Cartouches
9/26/2017
Ed

Maker: Springfield, Model: ?, Caliber: M1903, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: ?, SN: ?

Question:
Sir, was it or is it common to find a Springfield Armory 1903 with a same era/period (early 30s) Remington stock cartouche? Thanks, Ed, USA (Ret)

Answer:
Ed- The Model 1903 Springfield was made to strict standards of interchangeability, originally by Springfield and Rock Island and later in variations by Remington and Smith Corona. The parts from one maker all were essentially interchangeable with all the other makers. (Aside from minor differences between models.)

Remington did not begin production until December 1941, and their first production was fully interchangeable with Springfield or Rock Island arms dating back to 1906. Parts were often changed during military service, while cleaning or repairing several rifles at once, or during arsenal overhauls when rifles were totally broken down and reassembled with parts pulled at random from piles of parts which had been inspected. Thus you could have a 1930s Springfield with a post 1941 Remington stock.

However, it is also possible and probably more likely that the stock was switched after the rifle left military hands and a dealer or collector may have "restored" it to replace a broken or sporterized stock.

Hope that helps. John Spangler

15654 - Book On Artillery Shell Sizes
9/23/2017
Bruce

Maker: ?, Model: ?, Caliber: ?, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: ?, SN: ?

Question:
Looking for a book on US Army's 'Fragmentation Guide' to US and foreign projectiles and shell cases. so I can see what size shells I have. Bruce

Answer:
Bruce- Thanks for contacting Antique and Collectable Firearms and Militaria Headquarters.

I am not familiar with the fragmentation guide, but might have heard of it somewhere and think it is mainly so you can tell what sort of stuff was shot at you from the fragments.

There are few good references for collectors, and most are focused on one area or another with no all encompassing guides for all U.S. and foreign from all periods.

For the brass shell cases, Robert Hawkinson's A Guide To The Identification and Research of Big Bore Ammunition, 2nd Edition, 2012 is superb and covers virtually all the cases. It is available from the author and price is about $110 plus postage. A great investment if you are going to get into a wide variety of cases.

If you will be limited to mostly U.S. cases, then a few of the U.S. military manuals should be sufficient. They usually have a drawing of the complete round with an overall length, and the text identifies the M?? designation of the case. Many of these are available free on line, or at a cost in hard copy from various sources, or we offer a CD with a bunch of U.S. and foreign manuals for $20.00

20715 U.S. MILITARY AMMUNITION REFERENCE LIBRARY ON CD - Covering all types of ammunition for small arms, mortars, artillery, grenades, bombs, rockets, pyrotechnics, and signals! Seven of the most important official references, with over 2,600 pages of information, loaded with detailed drawings, specifications, markings, etc. Dates range from 1923 to 2003, with most WW2, Korea and Vietnam vintage ammo covered in detail. High quality .pdf files that are fully searchable using the free Adobe Acrobat. You can copy and paste selected text or images into other documents for collectors or historians. This material is all on a single CD. Free shipping in the U.S. $20.00 (View Picture)

I highly recommend you check out this informative site for a lot more on the topic.: http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=introduction-to-artillery-shells-and-shell-casings

Hope that helps. John Spangler

15690 - Mystery Ruger
9/23/2017
Derek, Deer Park, Tx 77536

Maker: Sturm Ruger, Model: .22 LR Auto, Caliber: .22, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Blue, SN: 445822

Question:
What year model is my gun ? Where can I get a history if known? Value?

Answer:

Derek, you did not give me a model or even a barrel length so I do not even know if you are asking about a handgun or a rifle. With the information provided I can not be of much assistance. I suggest that you check the Ruger site at the following link for more information.

http://ruger.com/service/productHistory.html

Good luck, Marc

15689 - Remington 341-P Date Of Manufacture
9/19/2017
Bret Lambert

Maker: Remington, Model: 341-P, Caliber: 22, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Blue, SN: 12465

Markings:
U over CE

Question:
Trying to find out date of manufacture.

Answer:
Bret, the Model 341 "Sportsmaster" was an updated version of the Model 34 which was a tube-fed, repeating version of the Model 33. The 341 was only in production for a short time, Remington manufactured 131,604 from 1936 to 1940.

Remingtons made between 1921 and 1972 have a code located usually on the left side of the barrel near the frame that identifies the year and month of manufacture. The following letters correspond to the months of the year, for example B=January, L= February and so on [ B - L - A - C - K - P - O - W - D - E - R - X ]. The following letters correspond to the year of manufacture starting in 1921 and ending in 1972. [ M - N - P - R - S - T - U - W - X - Y - Z - A - B - C - D - E - F - G - H - J - K - L - MM - NN - PP - RR - SS - TT - UU - WW - XX - YY - ZZ - A - B - C - D - E - F - G - H - J - K -L - M - N - P - R - S - T - U - W ]. Marc

15653 - Fox Sterlingworth Shotgun
9/19/2017
Matthew

Maker: ?, Model: ?, Caliber: ?, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: ?, SN: ?

Question:
Good afternoon, I recently inherited an A.H Fox Sterlingworth. Not much is know about the gun except it was my great grandfathers. I am looking for more information about it. The serial number is 112304. It says it was made in Philadelphia. The latest patent date says june 11-12. Do you have the resources or know where I can find out more. I appreciate all your assistance.

Answer:
Matthew- Sorry, we cannot help with that one. We just do not know much about shotguns. What little I know is that those are good guns, not the most fancy or expensive, but above average quality and durability. Google Fox Sterlingworth history and that should turn up some good info. John Spangler

15652 - M1917 Barrel Sight Key Slot
9/16/2017
Doug

Maker: ?, Model: ?, Caliber: ?, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: ?, SN: ?

Question:
I saw a picture of a 1917 Enfield barrel with dovetails on either end of the front sight grove. Is that a standard barrel or has it been modified? Thank you

Answer:
Doug- M1917 barrel front sight slots for the key are made different ways by different makers. The original makers used a plunge type milling process that just left the slot with rounded ends. I don;t recall how High Standard did theirs, but the Johnson Automatics barrels used a blade type cutter for the slot and then finished the ends with the perpendicular cuts, similar to the way M1903A3 key slots were cut.

Hope that helps. John Spangler

15686 - Celta 32
9/16/2017
Tim. Milton WI

Maker: Celta, Model: ?, Caliber: .32 ACP, Barrel Length: 3.5 '', Finish: Blue, SN: 20686

Markings:
Left rear slide has a shield with an x inside and a crown above it. Next to that is the letter B. Next to that is an animal with a tail rearing up on it`s hind legs. Also on left slide is Pistola Automatica with the name ''Celta'' in cursive. On the right rear slide it says made in Spain. Below ejection port above trigger is the serial #.

Question:
What is the date and location of manufacture?

Answer:
Tim, I was unable to find much information on Celta, one source indicates that Celta Tomas de Urizar of Barcelona Spain is another name for 'J. Cesar'. The pistol was an otherwise anonymous 7.65mm Elbar-type automatic, possibly made by Urizar in the early 1900s. It has been attributed to Manufacture d'Armes des Pyrenees.

You should be warned that some early Spanish semi auto pistols made use of low quality, steel which may not be strong enough to handle modern day high- pressure loads. My advise would be to retire this weapon and not fire it.

There is not much collectors interest in cheap Spanish pistols like this, I often see them offered at gunshows in the $100 range. Marc

15651 - M8 Bayonet Scabbard Murder Investigation
9/12/2017
Jacob

Maker: ?, Model: ?, Caliber: ?, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: ?, SN: ?

Question:
Hi there, I work at a law firm and we are currently representing a client in a murder case. At the scene of the crime, an M8 scabbard (no knife) was found, and we're looking to talk with someone with more extensive knowledge of military weaponry to help us understand the origins and details of the specific scabbard a little better. Through internet research, we've determined it to be World War II era, but we have a number of questions and would really appreciate someone being able to help. Please send me an email or call me at 765-426-9928 if anyone would like to talk further. Thanks so much

Answer:
Jacob- As you have learned, the M8 scabbards were first made during WW2, and continue in production today, and many millions have been made during that time. Older ones were repeatedly reissued, and many sold off as surplus or fell into departing soldiers' dufflebags and went home with them.

The M8 scabbard has been used with the M3 trench knife, M4 bayonet for the M1 carbine, the M5 and M5A1 bayonets for the M1 Garand rifle, the M6 bayonet for the M14 rifle and the M7 bayonet for the M16 rifle. In addition, private owners have found them to be cheap and convenient scabbards for all sorts of non-military blades.

It is totally impossible to trace a scabbard's history or possible multiple uses or users unless there are fingerprints or DNA evidence.

Hope that helps. John Spangler

15676 - Henri Pieper Rifle Info
9/9/2017
Angel Tacomo Wa USA

Maker: Loyal Arms Co., Model: 60080, Caliber: Rifle, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Other, SN: 60080

Markings:
Barrel has on the inside @ A PIEPER Bye then an X an 1 and a V then 307g with arrow pointing down

Question:
I cant fint any information on this gun. Can you help?

Answer:
Angel, it sounds like your rifle was manufactured by Pieper and marketed under the Loyal Arms Co. name. A quick Google search provided the following information on Henri Pieper at Answers.com:

"Henri Pieper was a Belgian gunmaker operating between the late 1860's and his death around 1898. By the time of his death he had grown his gunmaking firm to quite a large size. The company was reorganized after his death by his heirs (family). It went into receivership again and was refinanced around 1906 and continued until the firm was wound up in the early 1950's. The company names are variations using the family name Pieper and the guns most closely identified with the firm are pistols that are marked with the trade name Bayard, although they also made shotguns and rifles. I happen to own a very high grade Pieper shotgun made around 1903 with fantastic leaf & vine engraving, along with several others shotguns by Pieper."

Hope this helps, Marc

15650 - Dragon Gun From Arab Market In Egypt
9/9/2017

Maker: ?, Model: ?, Caliber: ?, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: ?, SN: ?

Question:
I'm hoping you can help me. I have a replica dragon musket I purchased in the 80's at an Arab market in Egypt. I took it to the Antiques Roadshow in Green Bay recently and all I found out was that it definitely was never a real working flintlock because there was no hole in the pan. It's beautiful but I desperately want to know more about it. If you would be interested in seeing a picture and helping me, please e-mail me. Thanks much!

Answer:
Sir- Sorry, we cannot help with that one. I am sure we cannot add anything to what the Antiques Roadshow people could tell you. I know a couple of the gentlemen who have done their firearms items and every one of them is top notch across a broad spectrum of firearms, and ethical in their dealings. (Well except for one con man who was kicked off the show some years ago and his episodes purged from their archives.)

Don't feel alone, however, as the folks around the edges of the Mediterranean have been making guns to sell to gullible tourists for at least a hundred years. They are nice souvenirs, often quite decorative, but seldom actual working firearms or very old. Generally the purchase prices were modest, and the values are seldom more than what was paid for them, except maybe sentimental value. Today we see the traders in the markets in Afghanistan peddling all sorts of souvenir "antique" guns to our service members there, and many or most of those are fakes cobbled together in the Khyber Pass workshops. Hope that helps. John Spangler

15675 - Ortgies Value
9/5/2017
Gary, Lebanon, Indiana

Maker: ?, Model: ?, Caliber: 7.65. 32 Cal, Barrel Length: 4 In, Finish: Blue, SN: 44637

Markings:
Left side of slide has..Ortgies`Patent. Deutsche Werke Aktiengesellschaft,Werk Erfurt. Back of butt looks like a M, then looks like a square leaf or badge same size as the M. Then 24... So looks like ..M#24. Then on right side slide right behind trigger has a matching mark, one on body, and one on slide. They are lined up ,one on top of the other. Looks like a crown on top of a N. It also has wood grips with a gold badge in middle, looks like a O on top of a H it also has B K underneath the wood grips. And the serial # is at the front of trigger guard on bottom side. Has a squeeze handle safety. and the release is on left side towards the back.

Question:
My father recently died, leaving me the firearm. I'm trying to figure out what it is and its value. Any help would b appreciated, thanks!

Answer:
Gary, I can tell you a little about Ortgies. The founder of Ortgies (Heinrich Ortgies) was a German but he lived in Liege for many years, and may have been connected with the firearms business there. During his residence in Belgium, Ortgies designed an automatic pistol incorporating certain ingenious details which he patented in about 1916. After WWI, Ortgies returned to Germany and set up in business in Erfurt manufacturing the Ortgies pistol. Ortgies manufactured upwards of 10,000 pistols and they proved to be such a great success that Deutsche Werke of Erfurt made him an attractive offer to buy his business which he accepted. In 1921 Deutsche Werke took over the Ortgies patents, tools and stock, and began making Ortgies pistols. Original Orgies made pistols are marked on the slide 'Ortgies & Co Erfurt Ortgies Patent', the grips came with a bronze medallion with the intertwined initials 'HO', these grip medallions were retained by Deutsche Werke for some years, and they also retained the wording 'Ortgies Patent'. Later production dropped both these features. Unfortunately there is not much collector interest in Ortgies pistols I often see them offered for sale at gunshows in the $125.00 - $250 range. Marc

15649 - Jezail Value
9/5/2017
Randy

Maker: ?, Model: ?, Caliber: ?, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: ?, SN: ?

Question:
I have a rifle with a lock from a Brown Bess Musket and has the word tower on it. It looks like it came from a rifle or smooth bore of the late 1600 or early 1700's. The wood is not from a Brown Bess but could be from the original sporter rifle that matches the barrel. The stain is red which was used from late 1600's to the 1800.s. Inlays are similar to middle eastern firearms. The leather sling has been replaced in the 20th century. I was told the fireman could be from 200 to 240 years old and the barrel is even older. I think it is called a Jezail. I was told my relative paid $10,000 for the rife which is in a glass case. Did he pay too much. Thanks for your help. Randy.

Answer:
Randy- Thanks for contacting Antique and Collectable Firearms and Militaria Headquarters.

First, a disclaimer- I have not seen this gun and can only go by your description, so it may be something far different from what I envision so my comments may be entirely wrong. But, I think there is a 90% chance I am pretty close!

Jezail is the polite word for what most people call "camel guns" which is applied to a broad variety of long guns usually with funny shaped stocks and lots of fancy bone or metal inlays, made in the Arab world extending from North Africa eastward across the Middle East and into Iran, Afghanistan and India and northward into Turkey and the Caucuses. Since much of this was once colonized by the British, or the Brits traded there, many of the millions of Brown Bess muskets eventually ended up there as a source of parts for reuse into locally made arms or as patterns for newly made arms.

While many of the firearms were indeed functional firearms used in the intramural and external wars of the region for the last 200 years or so, a surprisingly high percentage were remade, or made from new parts and artificially aged to supply the "tourist trade" for the last 100 years, and such items are being sold today in the bazaars of Afghanistan.

Very few people collect these, and they are valued mainly for decorative use or as souvenirs of a trip somewhere.

As far as value, I see some selling in the few hundred dollar range, and others offered at much more optimistic price levels but seldom selling. I have no idea what would ever make one worth $10,000 and think you could get a quite nice original Brown Bess with great history and condition at that price level with people fighting over it.

In my opinion your relative paid way too much for any jezail. You may also check to see if he has a deed for the Brooklyn Bridge and some beachfront property in Arizona hidden away. Don't let him buy any more guns!

Hope that helps.

John Spangler

15631 - Gun For Sale By Another Dealer
9/2/2017
Will, Glean Allen VA

Maker: Starr, Model: 1858, Caliber: .36, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Blue, SN: 2XX

Markings:
I am considering buying this gun and do not know the SN. This is the URL of the website showing the gun I am considering: http://www.jjmilitaryantiques.com/Home.aspx/Catdet/19467?nm=starr-double-action-navy-civil-war-revolver&category=handus&bread_last=%2FHome.aspx%2FCatpage%2Fhandus%3Fpsize%3D80%26page%3D0%26sortseq%3DName&category_desc=Handguns%20US%20Pre - 898#.WTNtXoWcFPZ

Question:
Hi Experts, Was the Starr Revolver (.36 and .44 Cal) used much in the Civil War? If so which one and are there marks on it that significant relative to the probability of being a military issue. Depending on your guidance, I may want to locate a good one. The gun I am considering, has no inspection marks that I know of and according to Flaydermans, the .36 Cal usually does not. However I read an article that indicates that if the ''B'' appears, it was a military gun. But, I think this is applicable to the Army .44. My goal is the buy the gun that: (1) is the model that was most likely to have been used in the CW. (2) is the most desirable/rare and (3) is in the best condition. I am new at this an need guidance. Thank you, Will

Answer:
Will- We do not normally comment on guns being offered by other dealers. Most dealers are honest, hard working and try their best to be accurate. A few are not as stellar and should be avoided. Different customers may have reactions to transactions with the same dealer, and while most customers are great a few are not. We do not want to get caught in the middle of an arbitration between buyer and seller, we have enough work to do trying to do the best we can for our own customers.

Just for the record, however, I have only heard good things about the guys at JJ Military Antiques.

You are asking the right sort of questions, and looking at things that some collectors never bother to think about. First, I will admit that I have only handled a few Starr revolvers in my entire life and had to research them each time. I always start with Flayderman and then for Civil War era arms check Robert Reilly’s “U.S. Military Small Arms 1816-1865” and maybe William Edwards’ “Civil War Guns.”

As Flayderman notes about the Starr Model 1863 Army revolver (in the Percussion Revolver chapter) “Next to Colts and Remingtons, this was the major model of revolving handguns bought by the U.S. government in the Civil War period.” But, you were asking about the Model 1858 Navy in .36 caliber, and only about 2,250 of those saw service. Thus the Navy model may be the scarcest of the military used Starrs, but how important to you is the rarity factor over condition compared to the Army models?

I strongly urge new collectors, or even long time collectors to go read all the introductory chapters in “Flayderman’s Guide to Antique American Firearms and Their Values” as well as the first few pages in the chapter dealing with their field of interest.

That will give you a lot of background and help answer your questions about usage, rarity and condition. All of this must then be viewed with an eye to how popular a collecting field is, relative scarcity (so now you have supply and demand to kick around) and then take a look at condition of similar guns being offered. Confederate or Indian used guns are usually NRA horrible condition, while modern Rugers and recent production guns can easily be found in new in the box condition. Then you can balance percentage of finish versus the thickness of your checkbook, and how badly the wife needs another pair of shoes. Will you buy a gun right now just to have an example, or hold out until one in pristine condition desires comes along and be prepared to pay top dollar for top condition?

But when working with any dealer, it is best to be an informed customer and do your homework before buying, and if unsure of something, find out what their return policy is. Every dealer makes mistakes (including us) but the difference is how they are willing to fix the problem.

Hope that helps. John Spangler

15674 - Remington 141
9/2/2017

Maker: Remington, Model: 141, Caliber: .30, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Blue, SN: 2346

Markings:
Has a brass- looks like the end of a bullet casing with 30 rem umc on it, on the reciever, on left side of barrel it has stamped ED and a symbol like an upside down u

Question:
What year was it made and how much is it worth

Answer:
Remington firearms that were manufactured between 1921 and 1972 have a two or three letter code on the left side of the barrel that identifies the month and year of manufacture. The first letter identifes the month and the other letter or letters identify the year. As the years passed, some of the code letters were reused so a marking may have one or more possible meanings. The "ED" marking on your barrel would indicate that your rifle's barrel was manufactured in October of 1935 or October of 1957. Since the Remington Model 141 was only manufactured between 1936 and 1950, your rifle was probably manufactured in 1936.

Values in the blue book for Remington Model 141 rifles range from around $150 to a little over $450 depending on condition. It has been my experience that slide action centerfire rifles do not have allot of collector or shooter demand so you may find that your rifle is difficult to sell.

BTW:
I have always thought that an upside-down "u" would be the letter "n". Marc

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