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15256 - Gecado 25
10/31/2015
N,c

Maker: Gecado, Model: Mod 11, Caliber: 6.35(.25), Barrel Length: 2 Inch, Finish: Nickel, SN: 41144

Markings:
3 pics above grip

Question:
How old is it and what is it worth

Answer:
N,c - Gecado pistols were marketed by the Dornheim company (Dornheim G. C. Dornheim AG, Suhl. Germany). Pre-war Gecado pistols were low quality 6.35mm and 7.65mm 'Eibar' type automatics, manufactured by SEAM (q. v.). They bore the word 'Gecado' in a diamond.

Post-war Gecado models were manufactured in West Germany and they included various .22 and .38 caliber revolvers and a blowback operated semi-auto model much like the pre-war versions except for a difference in the location of the safety catch. .

Collector interest in this type of pistol is typically low, they often sell in the $50 - $100 range. Marc

15193 - Bacon Arms Company Excelsior Pistol
10/31/2015
Mike, Huntsville, AL.

Maker: Bacon Firearms Company, Model: Excelsior, Caliber: .31, Barrel Length: Unknown, Finish: Nickel, SN: 881

Question:
Is it possible to date this pistol/revolver based on the serial # 881. Supposedly, there was less than 1,000 made (?)

Answer:
Mike- “Excelsior” was typical of the names applied to many of the “suicide special” revolvers made in the 1870s and 1880s, usually without the actual manufacturer’s name. This is probably because they did not wish to be associated too closely with their products, often of poor quality, dubious safety and poor durability. However, the brand names such as Excelsior, Bonanza, Penetrator, Express, Reliable, Conqueror suggested a much higher appeal to the buyer. Most of the “suicide specials” were made in .22, .30, .32, .38 and sometimes .41 or .44 rimfire calibers, and I suspect yours is actually .32 rimfire caliber instead of .31.

Bacon Arms Company operated in Norwich, CT, from 1865 unti1888 when it went bankrupt and Crescent bought the remains, including their single shot shotgun.

The only book with much info on these beyond that on Bacon Arms in Flayderman’s Guide and Frank Sellers’ American Gunsmiths is Donald Webster’s Suicide Specials published in 1958. Webster states that the Excelsior brand was made by Bliss and Goodyear of New Haven, but I suspect his information is incorrect in view of the later work by Flayderman and Sellers.

I am not sure where the “less than 1,000 made” rumor came from, but it may relate to some Bacon arms which were required to be marked with Smith & Wesson patent information after they won a lawsuit against several firms making revolvers with bored through cylinders in violation of the Rollin White patent owned by S&W. John Spangler

15189 - INTERNATIONAL FLARE SIGNAL CO Flare Gun
10/27/2015
Torrey, Estacada, Oregon, USA

Maker: INTERNATIONAL FLARE SIGNAL CO, Model: Flare Pistol, Caliber: N/a, Barrel Length: 8'', Finish: Other, SN: PF 7-893

Markings:
There is a ''20'' on the frame, (left side) visible when breach is open

Question:
What does the ''PF'' stand for, and what is its vintage. Any other information would be appreciated, as I know next to nothing about this item, except it was my dads. Thank you in advance for any info you could give.

Answer:
Torrey- These are heavy items, mostly made of cast brass with a steel barrel to fire 37mm flares. They were made during WW2 primarily for merchant ships as part of a signal kit carried in lifeboats. The 7-983 is probably a serial number (although thousands were made) and my understanding is that the “PF” indicates it passed proof testing for flare ammunition. The 20 is probably an inspector or assembly number. There are a number of people who collect flare guns, and these pistols turn up regularly so values tend to be modest, but they are popular. John Spangler

15255 - Omega Info
10/27/2015
Chris Anniston Alabama

Maker: Omega, Model: 100, Caliber: 22.short Rifle, Barrel Length: 2 1/2 Inches, Finish: Don`t Know, SN: 87253

Markings:
White plastic grips, and omega imbedded in them.

Question:
I would like to know the date of manufacture? And possibly any history about the gun if at all possible. Thank you for any help!

Answer:
Chris, my guess is that your revolver was probably manufactured by EM-GE of West Germany sometime in the 1960s. The company marked a line of cheap .22 rimfire and .32 center-fire revolvers under the Em, Ge, G&E, Omega and PIC brand names among others. Many shooters (including myself) consider these revolvers unsafe to fire. Value will be in the $50 range if you can find a buyer. Marc

15252 - Need Physic Help
10/24/2015
Kevin, Candor, NY

Maker: Winchester, Model: 1890, Caliber: .22, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Blue, SN: 268,000

Question:
I would like to know approximately, how many 1890 Winchester .22`s have survived. I know that records show 750,000 to 800,000 that were made, but how many have survived. ask this because I see too many people on eBay that buy these guns just to strip them down and sell the parts for profit and because of these people, these guns are being quickly destroyed everyday.

Answer:
Kevin, I am not sure how you would expect someone to determine an answer to your question, your guess is as good as mine. I think that it is a good bet though that most of the rifles that are candidates for breaking down to sell as parts are examples in very poor condition and / or rifles chambered in .22 WRF which is very hard to get now days. Marc

15188 - Remington Percussion Revolver Markings
10/24/2015
Jarmie, Coquitlam, B.C., Canada

Maker: Remington, Model: New Model Army, Caliber: .44, Barrel Length: 8'', Finish: Blue, SN: 141615

Markings:
''R'' stamped on barrel & frame left side. ''S'' stamped on barrel & frame right side. ''C'' stamped on left side frame under hammer. ''O'' stamped on bottom wood grip left side and cartouche stamped on left grip. F.B.C. Co. stamped on left side frame.

Question:
When was gun made and to who or where gun was issued. What does F.B.C. Co. mean? Could it mean Frontier Battalion C Co. issued to Texas Rangers in 1874??

Answer:
Jarmie- I regret I cannot identify the meaning of the F.B.C. Co marking but suspect it may be some sort of “costume company” which supplied the theater or movie industry with various props. The “O” on the grip may be related to the same company, but the other marks sound like typical military inspector marks found on these.

It is remotely possible, but probably more wishful thinking that the Texas Frontier Battalion might have used this. I have not seen (nor looked very hard for) information on exactly what arms they used, but in 1874 the Remingtons would have been a plausible choice. Perhaps the Texas Ranger Hall of Fame would have more info. Hope that helps. John Spangler

15186 - Colt 1895 .38 Navy Revolver Ammunition
10/20/2015
Sean

Maker: Colt, Model: 1895 New Navy, Caliber: D.A. 38, Barrel Length: 6'', Finish: Blue, SN: 70601

Markings:
USN/Anchor/.38DA/Trident/No 7995/N.C.T./ 70601 all on butt. N.J under cylinder on left side.

Question:
I am looking for a box of 38 long and short Colt from the manufacture date of this gun and I am also looking Cartridge Feed Loaders as well. They were made by Colt and were an early speed loader, the parts were disposable. Let me know. Thanks. Sean L. Couch 908-229-0911

Answer:
Sean- Sorry, I have never seen any U.S. Navy boxes of .38 caliber pistol cartridges from the pre-1900 period. I have seen photos of the “speed loaders” in books, be never one in person. The entire field of the military .38 double action revolvers is one that has been largely neglected for decades, with demand and prices well below the Colt Single Actions or semi-autos, or even the .45 double actions. That is a good collecting niche, in my opinion. Yours with New Jersey militia markings is especially interesting, and I am not sure if New Jersey had a “Naval Militia” around that time, or if it ended up with the infantry folks instead. John Spangler

15251 - Hope Springs Eternal
10/20/2015
John, Helenville, WI

Maker: Husqvarna, Model: 1887 Swedish Nagant, Caliber: 7.5X22, Barrel Length: 4'', Finish: Blue, SN: 8503

Question:
I have a model 1887 Swedish revolver, and I have no idea what year it was actually made. Lets just say it was made in 1902. These revolvers were licensed copies from Belgium (Nagant) patents and made from 1887 until about 1905. The 7.5x22 caliber cartridges are no longer manufactured in the United States and are not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. My question is... if my revolver was made after 1898 is it still considered to have antique status because it is a copy of a revolver made in 1887 and shoots obsolete ammunition?

Answer:
John, if we were to follow your logic on other firearms, for example, the 1892 and the 1894 Winchester, both would be except because they were designed before 1898, if they were chambered in an obsolete caliber. I am afraid that the ATF will probably not go for it, the short answer is NO! Wikipedia has an excellent article on antique firearms at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antique_firearms. Here is a quote:

Under the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, any cartridge firearm made in or before 1898 ("pre-1899") is classified as an "antique", and is generally outside of Federal jurisdiction,[8] as administered and enforced by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE). The only exceptions to the Federal exemption are antique machineguns (such as the Maxim gun and Colt Model 1895 "Potato Digger") and antique cartridge rifles or shotguns firing shotgun shells that are classified as "short barreled" per the U.S. Gun Control Act of 1968, namely cartridge rifles with a barrel less than 16 inches long, or shotguns firing shotgun shells with a barrel less than 18 inches long, or either cartridge rifles or shotgun-shell-firing shotguns with an overall length of less than 26 inches. Muzzle loading guns, as replicas of antique guns, are not subject to Federal jurisdiction and are essentially classified the same as an antique firearm. Hence, a muzzle loading black-powder shotgun is not subject to the short-barreled National Firearms Act of 1934 restrictions. Purchases of such modern-day manufactured replicas may be done outside of the normal Federal Firearms License (FFL) restrictions that otherwise exist when purchasing modern (post-1898) firearms.[8] Modern replicas of firearms that can fire fixed ammunition, however, are not classed the same as antiques, but must be shipped through FFL holders, although a true antique that was manufactured prior to 1899 firing the same cartridge as the replica would be legal for sale without the transfer being processed through an FFL. Furthermore, any rifle re-built on a receiver or frame that was manufactured prior to 1899 is considered antique, even if it has been re-barreled or even if every other part has been replaced.[8]

Hope this helps. Marc

15184 - 1903 Springfield Bolt Handles
10/17/2015
Patrick, Spanish Fork, UT,

Maker: Rock Island Arsenal, Model: 1903, Caliber: 30-06, Barrel Length: 24, Finish: Blue, SN: 18793

Question:
Did any of the 1903,s come with a straight bolt handle or where they all bent over

Answer:
Patrick- We need to define some terms here so we are all talking about the same thing. Most of the time rifle bolts are called “straight” if the handle sticks out 90 degrees from the receiver. This was almost always the case on early designs. Later, the bolt handles were bent down closer to the trigger guard which make it faster to manipulate the bolt for firing. By this definition ALL M1903 rifle bolts were “bent bolts.”

However, around 1918, the M1903 Springfield bolts were altered slightly so that the lower portion was bent slightly to the rear. This was done about the same time they changed the heat treating process to a safer standard, and may have been done so the safer bolts were easy to recognize, or it may have been done for other reasons. Therefore, these bolts are called “bent bolts” by Springfield collectors, and the 1918 and earlier design was called a “straight bolt.” The same terms are used for M1903 rifles made by Springfield or Rock Island (or later by Remington) and all are usually called M1903 Springfields, regardless of maker. No wonder people get confused. John Spangler

15250 - Win 94 DOM
10/17/2015
Wayne, Lowell, IN

Maker: Winchester, Model: 1894, Caliber: ?, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Blue, SN: 3309460

Markings:
None

Question:
What year was this gun manufactured?

Answer:
Wayne, the most valuable Winchesters are those that were manufactured before 1964, before the change over at Winchester to cheaper production methods with more stamped parts and crappy stamped checkering. Your rifle was manufactured in 1970 so it is too new to be a real collectors item. As a shooter I would expect to see a rifle like yours offered for sale ones the $300 range. Marc

15249 - Refinished P.38
10/13/2015
Chuck Lincoln City, Oregon

Maker: Walther, Model: P38, Caliber: 9mm, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Stainless Steel, SN: 2716 D

Markings:
cyq bird over 88

Question:
This P38 appears to be stainless steel as well as both clips all numbers are matching. Can anyone give me information about this gun.

Answer:
Chuck I doubt that your pistol is made from stainless steel, it is probably nickel or chrome plated. The `cyq` slide marking signifies that your P.38 is manufactured by Spreewerk, not Walther. `cyq` is the WW-II German ordnance code assigned to Spreewerk GmbH, Metallwarenfabrik, Berlin Spandau, Germany. The eagle over `88` marking that you describe should be stamped twice on the right hand side of the slide, once on the frame above the trigger, once on the right hand side of the barrel locking block and once on the left side of the barrel group. Eagle over `88` is the German WW-II Heerswaffenamt inspectors mark for the Spreewerk P.38 pistol. There should also be an eagle over a swastika marking which is a military acceptance stamp, it should be stamped on the right hand side of the slide between the two military inspectors stamps.

Original P.38 finish is blue, during WWII, there were none made of stainless steel or with a nickel or chrome finish, so your P-38 has been refinished. Values for refinished P-38`s are in the $150 to $200 range. Marc

15182 - Trapdoor Rifle Model 1868 Or 1869?
10/13/2015
Larry Dillon, McLoud, OK.

Maker: Springfield, Model: 1870, Caliber: .50, Barrel Length: 27.5?, Finish: Blue, SN: 1687

Markings:
A 11 on the buttplate, 1863 on side plate with US Springfield and eagle stamp, US 1870 on top of rolling block, 1687 stamped in barrel and receiver.

Question:
When was it made and where? What is the approx value in excellent condition?

Answer:
Larry- The 1870 date on the breech block, and 1863 date on the lockplate would be found on either Model 1868 or 1870 infantry rifles, or Model 1869 Cadet rifles. The Model 1870 rifles were not serial numbered when made, although some were later numbered when sold off to France during the Franco Prussian War.

That leaves either the Model 1868 Infantry rifle made circa 1868-1872, or the 1869 Cadet made circa 1869-1876. Both of these were serial numbered with 51,389 infantry rifles but only 3,422 if the cadet rifles, so with the serial number 1687 it could be either of those. The barrel length is measured on the inside of the barrel from the front of the closed breech block to the muzzle, not by the outside exposed part. The Infantry rifle has a 32 ½ inch long barrel, while the cadet rifle is only 29 5/8” long. I suspect your 27.5” measurement is the outside and it sounds about right to be the scarcer cadet model. The good news is that the cadet rifles are much less common than the infantry rifles, but the bad news is that many fewer collectors care about cadet rifles than for the infantry model, so values tend to be about the same, but slower sellers. As far as value, I would expect to see an excellent M1869 cadet rifle selling at a gun show in the range of $1,200 or so, but many different variations of “excellent condition” seem to exist.

The A 11 on the buttplate is some sort of locally applied rack number, but it is impossible to identify the unit which may have applied it. John Spangler

15248 - Model 12 Value
10/10/2015
Shelly Mueller Kansas City, Ks USA

Maker: Winchester, Model: ?, Caliber: ?, Barrel Length: 29, Finish: Blue, SN: 1321144

Question:
Can you tell me what this shotgun might be worth? model 12- 12 ga-3 in. cham. serial # 1321144 Pat. June 6, 1922. its in good shape

Answer:
Shelly, the Model 1912 (shortened to Model 12 in 1919) was Winchester's first slide-action hammerless shotgun. It was in production for over 50 years and in that time over 1,900,000 were manufactured. My references indicate that your shotgun was manufactured in 1950. The Model 12 was dropped from regular product line in 1963, but a special model was produced in the Custom Shop until 1979. In 1972 Winchester resurrected the Model 12 in its regular production line in 12 gauge with ventilated rib only. The reintroduced Model 12 was dropped in 1980.

The Model 12 shotgun can be found in many different combinations of gauges, barrel lengths, ribs, and stocks, all of which determine value. The more rare a particular combination, the higher the price.

Our main focus at FineOldGuns.com is military firearms. We sometimes list sporting shotguns for sale in our catalogs but we do not have a lot of interest in collecting them and are by no means experts in this field, this is why we request visitors to NOT submit questions about shotguns. Since I do not pay allot of attention to shotgun pricing and values, the best that I can tell you is that value will probably be in the $100 to $1500 range. Marc

15180 - ``Thomas Wilson Style`` 44-40 Straight Pull
10/10/2015
Damon Graniteville SC

Maker: Unknown, Model: 44-40 Straight Pull Single Shot Rifle, Caliber: 44-40, Barrel Length: 24'', Finish: Blue, SN: 5630

Markings:
Has no manufacturers mark on rifle. Only marked with four digit number 5630.

Question:
I would like to find out any info at all on this rifle. I have found one that is close and that is a Thomas Wilson.

Answer:
Damon- I regret we cannot help with this one. The only comments I can make are:

A- the .44-40 caliber suggest it is probably American made;
B- straight pull designs were sort of a fad that was popular circa 1885-1910
C- the only Thomas Wilson rifles I could find were British military style muskets or conversions.
Sorry we cannot help more than that. John Spangler

15176 - National Fire Arms Company .22 Rifle
10/6/2015
Tom Eau Claire

Maker: R. Murdock, Model: National Firearm Company, Caliber: 22 Cal., Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Blue, SN: ?

Markings:
This is a falling block design. I believe 22 cal.

Question:
What this gun worth, and how old is this gun?

Answer:
Tom- There are several variations on the name:
National Arms Co of Brooklyn, NY made Moore patent revolvers and derringers circa 1866-1869 when they were sold to Colt, but apparently not any .22 rifles.
National Arms Co. was also a trade name used on imported shotguns.
National Fire Arms Co. was a trade name used by Crescent on double barrel shotguns.
National Fire Arms Co. was a trade name used on a Martini type shotgun.
National Fire Arms Co. was a trade name used by Marlin on some of their pump shotguns and .22 caliber rifles, but I am not sure exactly what type of .22 rifles. This info is from Frank Sellers American Gunsmiths.
Not knowing the maker or date, it is impossible to put an accurate value on it, but my guess is circa 1890-1910 and not much value. John Spangler

15247 - Mle 1892 Berthier Mousqueton ( Carbine )
10/6/2015
Terry Eastlake Ohio

Maker: Lt Etienne, Model: Mle 1892, Caliber: Dont Know, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Blue, SN: 21341

Question:
that is all the markings on this rifle. has bayonet holder on front. strap ring on side and loop on butt. flip up sights. Have no idea what it is or who made it. could you possibly have a guess?

Answer:
Terry You probably have a Mle 1892 Berthier Mousqueton. The markings are `St. Etienne`, not `Lt Etienne` and they indicate that the firearm was manufactured at the French Arsenal at St. Etienne. Wikipedia has some pretty good information on Berthier rifles and carbines at the following link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berthier_rifle. Here is some information from Wikipedia that may be useful:

The Berthier design began as the "Mousquetons Berthier" - a series of bolt action cavalry and artillery carbines with distinctly different actions from the Mle 1886/M93 8mm Lebel rifle. For instance the Berthier carbine's bolt lugs lock vertically into the receiver instead of horizontally as in the Lebel rifle. Berthier carbines were first issued in 1890 and 1892, and had been designed by Emile Berthier, an engineer at the French Algerian Railways,to be used with standard 8mm Lebel ammunition. The Berthier design was introduced as a replacement for the various aging Mle 1874 Gras single-shot carbines - still standard for French cavalry, artillery, and gendarme forces even after the introduction of the Mle 1886/M93 Lebel. Prior experiments with several carbine versions of the Lebel action proved unacceptably heavy and slow to load while on horseback. While retaining most of the bolt action's strong points, the Berthier carbine improved on the earlier Mle 1886 rifle by using a one-piece stock and a Mannlicher-style, charger-loaded en bloc 3 shot clip. These Berthier carbines were progressively allocated to all cavalry,artillery and gendarmerie troops during the 1890s.

Hope that this helps, Marc

15175 - Civil War Smith Carbine
10/3/2015
Bob , Washington pa

Maker: American Machine Works, Model: Smith Carbine Pat. 1857, Caliber: 50, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Blue, SN: 782

Markings:
Inspector Marks (initials) on stock, barrel, and other initials on forearm and stock

Question:
I am looking for any information on when this Gun was made and how it might as a government contracted firearm been related to the civil war. It is in excellent condition for the age. Several collectors have used the term ''pristine''

Answer:
Bob- The Smith was a very simple and reliable design, basically using a hinged action that folded the gun in half, opening the middle of the chamber so you could insert or remove a cartridge, although you still needed a percussion cap for ignition. The Army purchased 300 for trials in 1860 and during the course of the Civil War purchased 30,062 more. The earliest were made by American Machine Works of Springfield, Mass, and later guns by the Massachusetts Arms Company and the American Arms Company, both of Chicopee Falls, Massachusetts, According to Robert M. Reilly’s U.S. Military Small Arms 1861-1865. However, John D. McAulay’s U.S. Military Carbines claims a total purchase of 31,002 between January 1862 and June 1865, with the earliest guns made by Massachusetts Arms Company.

The Smiths were issued in just about every theater of the war, and many cavalry units had a mix of several different weapons in a regiment and sometimes even within a company. Mechanically the Smith was an excellent weapon, simple and rugged and easy to repair when needed. However, the ammunition tended to have problems with reliability, so the guns got a bad reputation among some units, while others loved it. The Smith cartridge was more or less a piece of rubber tubing with the bullet stuck in on eend, the powder inserted and the open base sealed except for a small opening to allow the flash from the percussion cap to ignite the powder charge. However the hole also allowed some of the powder to leak out over time while carried on a bouncing horse with the cartridge base (and hole) downward in the cartridge box, making ignition difficult or impossible.

There is no known history surviving for your serial number, but you can read numerous battle accounts of the Smith in service in McAulay’s excellent book. Smiths are relatively common on the collector market, and many are still used by shooters in the North-South Skirmish Association (although may have retired their originals and now use replica arms), and “pristine” examples turn up frequently. Hope that helps. John Spangler

15246 - Father's Spreewerke P.38
10/3/2015
Pauline, Bowie, MD

Maker: ?, Model: ?, Caliber: 9mm, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Don`t Know, SN: 1798 1

Markings:
P .38 cyq 1798 1 eagle on globe 88 under ? others not sure (have photos)

Question:
My father was in the Navy towards the end of WW2 and I`ve inherited his handguns. I am trying to determine the history and value of a P.38, which after reading some of your answers, I believe to be a Spreewerk. I don`t know much about gun markings, but the P.38, cyq, 1798 and 1 are on the left side of the slide -SC- above the trigger on the left side is 1798, 1 and two symbols on either side of the ''1'' I can`t make out: one is a round shape with eight `arms`, and the other has a top line with three small horizontal marks, attached to a round mark below it which has a horizontal line on both sides of it, and attached to two ''8''s below that. On the right side of the slide there are three symbols: one looks like a bird with spread wings sitting on something round on both sides of the bird there appears to be partial markings similar to the two ''8''s described above, with another marking I can`t make out. Underneath the barrel the 1798 and 1 are stamped. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Answer:
Pauline, as you have already determined, "cyq" is the WW-II German ordnance code assigned to Spreewerke GmbH, Metallwarenfabrik, Berlin Spandau, Germany. Spreewerke got it's name from the company's main offices, located on the bank of the Spree River in Spandau, a suburb of Berlin. Spreewerke serial numbers are limited to four digits and a letter suffix but they did not start over at the beginning of each year and there is no year marking. For P.38 pistols manufactured by Spreewerke, collectors use the letter suffix to estimate the year of manufacture. The `1` that you mention is probably the really the lower case letter `l`. My calculations tell me that Spreewerke P.38 pistols with `l` serial number suffixes were manufactured in January of 1944.

Spreewerke P.38 pistols typically exhibit rough machining with visible milling marks. Your pistol should be stamped with an eagle over a swastika on the right hand side of the slide and an eagle over 88 twice on the right hand side of the slide, once on the frame above the trigger, once on the right hand side of the barrel locking block and once on the left side of the barrel group. The eagle over 88 stamping is a German WW-II Heerswaffenamt inspectors mark for the Spreewerke P.38 pistol and the eagle over a swastika is a military acceptance stamp.

Your pistol sounds like a nice memento of your father and I am glad to hear that it is still in your family. I would expect to see a P.38 pistol like you are describing sell at a gunshow in the $850.00 - $900.00 range. Hope this helps. Marc

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