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16263
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Carbine Value
6/27/2020
Ken Miller, Star, Idaho
Maker: Standard Products, Model: 30 M1 Carbine, Caliber: 30 Carbine, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Blue, SN: 2167468 OR 161468
Markings:
SA 11-52 barrel- SA over A on the stock, P on the stock grip bottom, SI on the barrel band, I.R. Co. on the adjustable rear sight. Has bayonet lug, it is easy to say it is in excellent condition. The old guy I bought it from said it was an NRA or CMP purchase by his father in about 65.
Question:
Contemplating selling it. Am not sure what I have or what it is worth. So that is the question, what do I have and what is it worth. I sold a couple of pristine M1 Garands to John in Bute Montana, one an M1C probably 20 some years ago. I am glad to see you are still in the game. Thanks, Ken Miller my email is kenmiller@u.boisestate.edu
Answer:
Ken- Good to hear from you again.
Standard Products was assigned the serial number range 1982520-2352519, so the serial number has to be 2167468. The SA 11-52 barrel would only have been used during overhauls, and the SA over A stock marking is a typical Springfield Armory rework cartouche. I am sure that the prior owner was truthful when he told you it was a gun sold through the old DCM program in the 1960s. NRA members could buy one for the price of $20.00 back then, and most were either like new, or recently overhauled to like new condition.
While some collectors are only satisfied by ``everything matching from when it was first made,`` other collectors recognize that military arms were made to be used and overhauled when necessary, and are perfectly happy with one which served honorably and was overhauled to the most recent configuration, ready for issue again. In the case of the M1 carbine, this usually involved making sure they had the band with bayonet lug, the adjustable rear sight, and flip type safety, altering the ``high wood`` on the stock to the ``low wood`` style if necessary. For the Garand it would have included updating rear sights to get rid of the ``lockbar`` type, and ensuring the gas cylinder lock and screw were appropriate for grenade launching. M1892 Krags were updated to 1896 with better sights and switching from the long cleaning rod under the barrel to a 3 section rod in the butt trap, and a bolt stop to hold it open. In the flintlock era, it involved conversion to percussion. All these are legitimate U.S. military arms variations, and it is important to celebrate those as important stages in U.S. martial arms development. The term ``evolved firearm`` is sometimes used to describe these overhauled or updated arms. Of course a serious collector wants both the ``as made`` and ``evolved`` versions, and their spouses will surely agree with this necessity.
As far as value, yours will bring less than an ``as made`` Standard Products carbine (not to be confused with one which has been ``restored to matching`` by substituting pieces and parts until you get a more or less right set, but with different finish and wear). M1 Carbines are very popular right now and most run about $800-1,000 retail. With the box and DCM papers a near new overhauled gun would bring a bit more than that. A totally unmessed with Standard Products carbine would bring even more, and a ``restored`` example somewhere in between.
Hope that helps.
John
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16308
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Luger With Leather Case
6/27/2020
Maker: ?, Model: Luger, Caliber: ?, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: ?, SN: ?
Question:
I have a lugar in a leather case with the eagle stamp on it marked 1941. I was told the gun might be a later model from 45 or so and has the number 66 on some of the components. I`ve been offered $1400 for it and am not sure if it might be worth more. The prospective buyer is a gun dealer. I was under the impression the case alone was worth $2000, but he says that`s with the swastika on it. I need to make a decision by Monday as the offer may expire.
Answer:
Dealers need to make a profit when they purchase an item so it is a good bet that the Luger is worth more than a dealer offered you, when we purchase an item here at OldGuns.net, our markup is 1/3. It is hard to answer your question without seeing the Luger. Not sure about the leather case, could it be a holster? If it is a holster, I can not think of one that would be worth $2000. Please send us some pictures and I will try to answer your questions and maybe I can make you an offer for your Luger that will not expire. Marc
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16247
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Model 1896 Krag Rifle
6/23/2020
Jeff, Cumberland, MD.
Maker: Springfield Armory, Model: Krag, Caliber: 30.40, Barrel Length: 32 '', Finish: Blue, SN: 96856
Question:
How much is this gun worth? Was it manufactured in 1898?
Answer:
Jeff- First, let me compliment your town. Cumberland is a really neat old town, in the skinny part of Maryland with Pennsylvania just a couple of miles to the north, and West, by God, Virginia on the other side of the Potomac river which is the southern border of the town. There is a really great little local Italian restaurant in the middle of downtown which I highly recommend- Ristorante Ottaviana. Their antipasto plate is superb. Nice menu, great food and service and pretty reasonably priced for a good Italian meal.
Your rifle was indeed made in 1898, probably very early in the year. They changed over to make the Model 1898 at about serial number 110,000, and got up to 152,000 by the end of the year. Your rifle is legally an antique under federal law.
Your serial number, 96856, is listed as being issued to Company D of the 5th U.S. Infantry on February 23, 1899. (Based on documents in the National Archives, located by the Springfield Research Service.)
There is no readily available unit history for the 5th U.S. Infantry circa 1898-1902, but best I can figure out they were sent to Tampa like most of the rest of the Army, at the outbreak of the Spanish American War. But, lack of shipping prevented all troops from departing for Cuba in June of 1898, and the 5th remained in Tampa while the fighting was going on. They finally departed for Cuba on August 27th, the war having halted with an armistice two weeks earlier.
The 5th served as part of the occupation forces, operating in the Santiago, Cuba, area. Many of the companies were used as ``mounted infantry,`` including Company D. On September 29, 1899 the 5th sailed for the U.S. In September, 1899 they were sent to the Philippines to fight against the rebels there.
The issue of this rifle in January 1899 was probably as a replacement for a broken or damaged rifle in the unit, or to a newly arrived soldier. Although not an exciting history, there is far more history known about this rifle than most. Only about 4,000 of the 475,000 Krags have any documented history at all.
As far as value, without seeing the gun to evaluate the condition, all we can say is that the history, such as it is, probably adds 25% above the value of a rifle in similar condition with no history. Hope that helps. John Spangler
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16307
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High Numbered Remington !917
6/23/2020
Matt
Maker: Remington, Model: 1917, Caliber: 30-06, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Blue, SN: 649323
Markings:
Barrel dated 9 - 8. All marks show r for Remington and al proper inspection marks on the stock
Question:
When was my rifle made? It looks like it seen combat with the stock even has an original sling. I checked the serial number on this website and it said it exceeded the number. But if I check Eddystone the serial number goes to June 1918 with the same serial number. Is it possible it was mismarked or did they put a different receiver in it?
Answer:
Matt - it is hard to answer your question without seeing your rifle. If your receiver is an Eddystone, it will be clearly marked as such just above the serial number on the receiver. Eddystone manufactured about 1.6 million rifles, Winchester and Remington both made about 500,000 each. Remington serial numbers ranged from 1 to about 545,541. After the war some rifles were assembled and sold by Remington and there was also a sporting version, it is possible that you have one of these. Marc
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16305
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Need Gunsmith Work
6/20/2020
Jay
Maker: Marlin, Model: 1894, Caliber: 22 LR, Barrel Length: 25 Inches? From End To Stock, Finish: Rusty, SN: 232544
Markings:
`Marlin Safety` on top. Assorted patent numbers on barrel.
Question:
I`m pretty good at restoring wood and metal, but the mechanics of the gun are beyond my experience. The lever action and the trigger both work, but I wonder if the firing pin wasn`t filed down. What would be the cost/procedure to repair the workings?
Answer:
Jay - John and I are not gunsmiths so we are not the correct people to answer your question for you. I recommend that you contact our good friend Lloyd Phillips at East Creek Precision (http://eastcreekprecision.com) Lloyd is an excellent gunsmith and I am sure that he will be able to help. Good Luck - Marc
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16246
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M1863 Springfield Marked ``Wm. White``
6/20/2020
Rich Burlington, NJ
Maker: Springfield, Model: M1863 Type I, Caliber: 58, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: Other, SN: NONE
Markings:
Buttplate stamped Wm White
Question:
The rifle is in excellent condition appears never to have had any metal cleaned. The stock has all the Springfield inspection and acceptance stamps. The barrel is void of any markings at all and it appears to have never had the eagle stamped in the bolster. Is it more than likely that it was assembled from surplus parts. I have heard there was a surplus dealer called the ''White Brothers'' but cannot find any information regarding their business. Any info. you can give would be appreciated.
Answer:
Rich- Assuming the markings are related to a military goods dealer, the best place to check is ``American Military Goods Dealers and Makers`` by Burce Bazelon and William McGuinn, 1990. It is a revised edition of an earlier book with similar title by Bazelon alone, and the revised on basically adds a second volume to the first, in a single book.
White Brothers were a a uniform company in Pensacola, FL, early in the 20th century, primarily in the early days of Naval aviation. A family member, William White, provided some info on their business, but it does not sound like these people have anything to do with your musket.
There was a William H. White of Brooklyn, NY who contracted for 50,000 painted canvas haversacks on April 24, 1863, but little else is known about him but there was a painter of that name living on Fulton Street in 1862-1864, and another William White living on Huron Street in 1865 with no trade listed.
There aer a couple of other dealers named White, but none with a William involved. I doubt if the markings are business related. It was common for many workmen in the late 19th century to have metal stamps with their name for marking tools and other personal property, and I suspect that it is some unknown William White, possibly a veteran of the War, maybe a GR member, or just an early gun collector who marked the gun- possibly after buying it from Bannerman. I have seen a number of other old guns with inexplicable names stamped on them. The lack of barrel markings strongly supports your belief that it was assembled from surplus parts, perhaps by Bannerman or one of his cooperative competitors who colluded to buy up military surplus at very low prices and divideit among themselves rather than bidding against each other and driving prices up.
Enjoy! John Spangler
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16304
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Re-Checker Fox Shotgun?
6/16/2020
Maker: Fox, Model: 1913, Caliber: ?, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: ?, SN: ?
Question:
I bought an old ah fox shotgun 1913 am having the stock refinished checkering on stock and forend were shot having remains sanded off will this affect the value? also a price to have it recheckered
Answer:
Any deviation from original condition will lower the value, but having a refinished stock will affect the value to collectors as well. Sorry, we are not gunsmiths so I can not quote a price for re-checkering, Marc
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16199
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WINCHESTER MODEL 94 NUMBER OR CALIBER
6/16/2020
Tom
Maker: ?, Model: ?, Caliber: ?, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: ?, SN: ?
Markings:
The serial number on the bottom is 5 8 3 0 3 0? Or, is the serial number ``58`` followed by the caliber which is 30-30.
Answer:
Tom- The caliber was marked on the barrel, usually as ``.30 WCF`` so your serial number is 583030. According to my data that indicates it was made in 1911. Hope that helps. John Spangler
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16198
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I WANT A REVOLUTIONARY WAR GUN?
6/13/2020
Fred
Maker: ?, Model: ?, Caliber: ?, Barrel Length: ?, Finish: ?, SN: ?
Question:
I have a ``need`` for a weapon from the American revolutionary war. Is this something obtainable without selling my house or am I dreaming?
Have a great 2020!
Answer:
Fred- How big a house? You have a number of choices.
Top of the list would be a British Brown Bess with regimental markings confirming use in the colonies. (I got lottery winning type lucky and picked one up 20 years ago marked for the 71st Fraziers Highlanders which fought in nearly every theater of the war. One of my favorite pieces.) Probably $10-20K if you can find one today from a regiment that served in America. Remember, the British Empire was a very big place, so a lot of regiments got stuck in obscure colonies which don`t get American collectors as excited as those units which we defeated to win our freedom.
There are lots of other Brown Besses out there without regimental markings, and while true Rev War pieces would be a 2nd model, they are quite a bit scarcer and pricier than the 3rd model which did not appear until after the end of the war having 39`` bbl instead of 42`` and different shape to the hammer. The 3rd models are affordable at $2-4K
French Charlevilles turn up frequently, and those with [real] US or UNITED STATES surcharges are the best choice, But, most are unmarked as far as US surcharges, and since they were not dated are hard to be certain if they are Rev War or from the Napoleonic era. I would guess $3-5K. Most are sort of doggy, and some are heavily restored or reconverted
Rev War American arms- Long rifles of that era are close to $10K for a great one, and lesser examples less, with ugly ones still almost affordable. Colonial muskets a lot cheaper, but so many were locally cobbled together they are hard to ID as to maker or age, and most were rough then and have not aged gracefully. Just about any foreign musket of the era has a chance of being used over here, but ID is tough to figure out what they are, let alone if used here. These are more affordable, but not as exciting as a Bess, Charleville or American Long rifle, even though no less historic.
All of the above will be highest value if original flint, less as a reconversion, and a whole lot less if converted to percussion. While the flints show their Rev War configuration, a percussion conversion tells a history of continued use after initial service, sometimes in militia, later as Farmer Jone`s favorite hog killing gun or something. Some people are okay with ``evolved arms`` and their long history, others only want original configuration- and are willing to pay the price. The preference for flintlock over percussion conversion has resulted in many guns being ``reconverted`` sometimes so well done as to be nearly impossible to detect, but most of the time not to hard to figure out. Some sellers don`t know, or won`t tell if it is a reconversion and demand the higher ``original flint`` price, so be cautious.
I strongly recommend you get a copy Flayderman`s Guide (if you don`t already have one) and a copy of the late George Neumann`s Battle Weapons of the American Revolution and study them carefully. George Moller`s American Military Shoulder Arms volume 1 is excellent with details found nowhere else, and worth having as well if you want to do some serious study. Yeah, books cost money but you can spend a whole lot more buying an education in the form of a bad gun.
Best place to buy would be at the Baltimore show (Timonium, MD, every March). NOTHING but antique arms and fine, friendly dealers. No junk, no fakes, and people know and explain what they have.
Auction sites are a possibility and some good stuff is coming out of old collections, but so is a lot of junk, and sometimes the descriptions are poor or fantasy. If you see one you like, decide what your max price will be (remembering that they gouge you with about 20-25% buyers premium and shipping is about double what dealers usually charge.) All as-is, no returns. It is best to bid in person.
If you can stretch your desires a bit later into 1800-1810 prices drop rapidly and available items are much easier to find.
Anything we have right now would be on the antique longarms page http://oldguns.net/cat_fa_antique_long.htm We recently sold a 1808 contract U.S. musket made in Massachusetts, still in original flint, but alas, converted to percussion for $750. It came from a family home in Lexington, Mass, and went to a customer who lives about 20 miles from where it was made.
Another option would be one of the nice quality replica Brown Bess muskets, which you could also shoot a bit for fun, instead of just hanging it on the wall.
Hope that helps. John Spangler
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16303
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H&R - Needs Repairs.
6/13/2020
David, Stockbridge, GA
Maker: H & R, Model: 929 (nine-shot), Caliber: 22 L.R., Barrel Length: 4 Inches, Finish: Blue, SN: BB034703
Markings:
wooden target grips
Question:
Can you tell me the year of production? and possibly recommend a good gunsmith for this revolver? It has slight problems with cylinder rotation and position of firing-pin strike.
Answer:
David, for an excellent gunsmith, I recommend that you contact Lloyd Phillips at East Creek Precision, here is the URL for his web site: http://eastcreekprecision.com/
The year of production may be a little difficult to determine. Bill Goforth was working on a book "H&R Arms Company 1871-1986" before his death, but do not think that it ever made it into print. The following is all of the information that I have on H&R serial numbers, I hope that they help. Marc
Manufacture Years For H&R/NEF Firearms
Year starting S.N. Prefix
1940 A
1941 B
1942 C
1943 D
1944 E
1945 F
1946 G
1947 H
1948 I
1949 J
1950 K
1951 L
1952 M
1953 N
1954 P
1955 R
1956 S
1957 T
1958 U
1958 V
1960 W
1961 X
1962 Y
1963 Z
1964 AA
1965 AB
1966 AC
1967 AD
1968 AE
1969 AF
1970 AG
1971 AH (snap on forend)
1972 AJ
1973 AL
1974 AM
1975 AN
1976 AP (first transfer bar on model 155)
1977 AR
1978 AS (Transfer bar added to all models) http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,228789.msg1099298912.html#msg1099298912
1979 AT
1980 AU
1981 AVAX
1982 AWAY
1983 AXAZ
1984 AYBA
1985 AZBB
1986 BABC
Second letter of prefix starting with N or H.....
A= 1986 H&R will only fit the original chambering(replacement for defective rifle), 357Mag, 44mag, and shotgun barrels to these frames
B= 1987
C= 1988
D= 1989
E= 1990
F= 1991
G= 1992
H= 1993
I= 1994
J= 1995
k= 1996
L=1997
M=1998
N=1999
P=2000
R=2001
S=2002
T=2003
U=2004
V=2005
W=2006
X=2007
Y=2008 serial number prefixes changed in May 2008 and on, CBA for SB2 and CAC for SB1, the only source for build year is to call and ask (866)776-9292.
http://www.hr1871.com/Support/accessoryProgram.asp
SBS= Factory Scoped Combo Handi
The first letter N = NEF, H = H&R, the second letter denotes year of manufacture.
Ilion made barrels will have the last 4 digits of the frame serial number engraved on the left side of the barrel under lug, earlier barrels made in Gardner will have just the last three.
1983 AX
1984 AY
1985 AZ
A= 1986
B= 1987
C= 1988
D= 1989
E= 1990
F= 1991
G= 1992
H= 1993
I= 1994
J= 1995
W=2006
X=2007
Y=2008
Z=2009
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